SACKED

Birker2020 said:
The trouble is we don't know the full story and probably never will. I think that only outcomes of serious allegations like physical and sexual abuse are published and sometimes they mention the name of the person, other times they don't.

The POT team has thresholds for implementation of a multi agency investigative meeting when an allegation has been made against a teacher of volunteer and should be applied when there is an allegation or concern that any person that works with children has:
  1. behaved towards a child or children in a way that indicates they may pose a risk of harm to children
  2. behaved or may have behaved in a way that indicates they may not be suitable to work with children
  3. behaved in a way that has harmed a child, or may have harmed a child
  4. possibly committed a criminal offence against or related to a child
No. 2 seems the most obvious choice.
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Still difficult to prove, a good union rep should run rings around them. I have worked in a school and would be more worried about the common disregard of making sure children carry their inhalers, especially when they are going to play sport, or lack of post head injury care, which seems to happen every day in some schools.
 
I'm actually shocked and disturbed at the number of people on here who are saying they've done something similar. I am yet to own a horse and view any time I get to spend with them as a privilege. I would never dream of punching or kicking a horse. There is a huge difference between being firm and being abusive towards an animal.

A lot of people are saying that she did not deserve to be sacked, but I know of teachers who were let go of for much less. Teaching children is a big responsibility and I think the majority of parents would not want someone so openly abusive towards an animal to be in charge of raising their kids. I agree that the media coverage of the video made this very public and therefore escalated the situation because there were a lot of eyes on it, but I still think that what she did was very wrong and that she has no business owning animals if she will behave so violently over such a tiny thing.
 
Tiddlypom said:
Well, yes, so I've heard too :rolleyes:. But it's more that's likely why the sabs were filming the horses being loaded back up when those particular followers had finished for the day. They were IMHO probably looking for footage of the hunt followers causing a nuisance.
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From my memory of the video I think the terrier men were there, which might have been who they were following.
 
I don't know anything about safeguarding, but a company I used to work for sacked someone who got drunk on a night out and did something that caused her to get arrested and subsequently convicted in court. It was nothing whatsoever to do with her work and was before social media was such a thing. There were no vulnerable children or adults involved. I am not sure if she pursued a tribunal but she didn't finish up with a pay off. Definitely something to do with bringing the company into disrepute which was written in the contract and the company being worried about having to defend the employment of staff with criminal convictions.
In this case if the school is a private school pressure from parents will also be a factor, if too many parents pull their children out and the school gets a bad reputation they are in a difficult position to keep employing her.
 
FestiveG said:
The thread and the posts are not about you, although you do seem determined to make it so! Other people, perhaps worth more experience of such events are also entitled to give their perspective, on the known facts.
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I was just trying to give my opinion based on the benefit of my experience. If you don't want to listen to it then don't read it.
There are people on the forum who have replied more than me but I don't hear you criticise them.
 
onemoretime said:
Yes Pearlsacarolsinger I also hopes this lady takes it to a Tribunal and I hope she wins. The whole situation has been blown out of all proportion.
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So what you’re basically saying is you’d be completely comfortable with someone like this, who clearly has ‘some’ anger issues, being your child’s teacher? You think she’s set a good example to youngsters? Ok, that’s your choice, but I definitely wouldn’t want her teaching my children, sorry, I just wouldn’t. ?‍♀️ I’m not saying what she did in some respects warranted her dismissal, the problem is, she’s a teacher, and that’s the point here surely?
 
Birker2020 said:
I was just trying to give my opinion based on the benefit of my experience. If you don't want to listen to it then don't read it.
There are people on the forum who have replied more than me but I don't hear you criticise them.
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Because they didn't respond to other posters, in the manner which you did. They have addressed the issue, not decided that answers are personalised attacks.
 
Birker2020 said:
I'm afraid you are missing the point. Read reply 7. Bad riding, fat horses etc do not have the potential and it the word is 'potential' to cause harm to children or young people. The risk was assessed. The decision made. End of.
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Actually not true - there is a comment the other day about a pony kicking out at a young jockey. This is a causation of other stuff that has gone on. Depends how you define risk - from humans or from horses!

I worked with rehabilitating sex offenders. i have also worked with children in precarious situations. There is assessing risk and then looking at history. The school couldn’t be bothered to deal with the publicity and public stoning.
 
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Miss_Millie said:
I'm actually shocked and disturbed at the number of people on here who are saying they've done something similar.
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I think what people are saying is that they have lost their temper at some stage with their horse. But I don't think anyone on here condones kicking or punching a horse as acceptable behaviour.

As I said way back on the first page I smack my horse and don't see an issue with this if they are showing undesirable behaviour, kicking or biting for an example. But there's a world of difference between tapping a horse on the nose or shoulder and beating seven shades out of it.
 
Upthecreek said:
Genuine question, I am not being facetious. The fact is the woman has been filmed hitting and kicking a horse, regardless of the reasons why it happened. If you are saying that the whole situation has been blown out of all proportion, do you think that a teacher hitting and kicking a horse is an acceptable example of behaviour to set to children? Yes or no.
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Anyone who doesn't think this has been blown out of all proportion better not let children watch Horse of the Year show, the Olympics or any racing.
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ycbm said:
Anyone who doesn't think this has been blown out of all proportion better not let children watch Horse of the Year show, the Olympics or any racing.
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Not comparable. Of course bad things happen in those events, but they are not usually committed by a teacher who will subsequently have sole charge of primary school age children.
 
LEC said:
ummm hang on I worked with rehabilitating sex offenders.

i have also worked with children in precarious situations.

I find your comments ridiculous. There is assessing risk and then looking at history. The school couldn’t be bothered to deal with the publicity and public stoning.
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I found your comment ridiculous too. You said: what she did was crap, but everyday I see crap that goes on and on. Fat horses being fed towards illness, bad riding, incorrect punishment for the riders fault, punishment for not having put in correct training but that’s all fine. Know better, to do better.

To quote Tiddlypoms reply as she is more eloquent than me "Not comparable. Of course bad things happen in those events, but they are not usually committed by a teacher who will subsequently have sole charge of primary school age children."
 
Miss_Millie said:
I'm actually shocked and disturbed at the number of people on here who are saying they've done something similar. I am yet to own a horse and view any time I get to spend with them as a privilege. I would never dream of punching or kicking a horse. There is a huge difference between being firm and being abusive towards an animal.

A lot of people are saying that she did not deserve to be sacked, but I know of teachers who were let go of for much less. Teaching children is a big responsibility and I think the majority of parents would not want someone so openly abusive towards an animal to be in charge of raising their kids. I agree that the media coverage of the video made this very public and therefore escalated the situation because there were a lot of eyes on it, but I still think that what she did was very wrong and that she has no business owning animals if she will behave so violently over such a tiny thing.
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You are right that spending time with horses is a privelege. I think most of us know that. I don't want to excuse someone from hitting or being unfair to a horse at all but when you have finished your day's work and you head off into the vile weather to get the horse in for the night/for the vet/farrier/ to go to a training event and the cheeky so and so spends 15 minutes charging round in the mud, potentially a danger to themselves whilst pretending they have never seen a headcollar before or some other thing, you may find your temper frays and you hurl the headcollar into the wind and mud, swearing in frustration! When you take your horse to an event that you have worked hard to prepare for and horse decides that it doesn't particularly fancy doing that thing that day, you will wear it and smile; horses have off days after all. When the same horse then decides that even though it has always been a champion loader, today is a day when it doesn't want to load, or it wants to hook off in the direction of the children's collecting ring because a helium balloon just went over it's head, you will be aware that sometimes horses don't want to load because their training hasn't been complete or perhaps they are over-tired or even have something else physical that bothers them after work, but it probably won't mean that inside you are not hugely disappointed, frustrated and even, potentially irrationally cross.

Sometimes your horse may even slightly frighten you or put you in a dangerous situation - threatening to reverse into a ditch because of something you can't see or understand, or spinning round because there is a 'thing' - or maybe just not respecting being led and threatening to 'lose' you as you lead down the lane - perhaps he or she thinks they can get to the field or their dinner a bit quicker!! Fear is usually at the basis of anger and loss of temper. I defy anyone to ALWAYS control their fear, their frustration, confusion, their tiredness and other worries. We learn by our mistakes - hitting a horse just doesn't really work unless it is specific, very well timed and necessary for safety but I bet most horse people have done it. Sometimes it is the right thing to keep things safe; for example leading a horse that is careering around on the end of the lead rope - that might be due to poor training, lack of exercise/inappropriate feeding/poor handling etc etc. Those things need to be addressed. But in the moment when that horse is putting itself and the handler in danger, a reprimand with a stick or the flat of the hand to regain attention and safety is the right thing to do.

We always need a horse's respect and that doesn't ever come from abuse. But I think it is naive in the extreme to think that it is possible to never use a physical cue or reprimand that we may not want to use. I don't think in this instance the horse hitting was at all warranted; the woman lost her temper clearly. That isn't the way to handle a horse. Sadly it is sometimes the way some people handle life. I don't know what this woman was up against emotionally or mentally. There is no reason for her to hit the pony but there will be a reason why she lost the plot. Pony is fine I reckon - the woman is now in a bad place, worse than the moment before she hit the pony. I think a bit of proportion and compassion is a good thing too.
 
ycbm said:
Anyone who doesn't think this has been blown out of all proportion better not let children watch Horse of the Year show, the Olympics or any racing.
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The last time we saw something like this WAS at the Olympics and there was massive outrage and consequences for the person who punched the horse and eventually for the sport as a whole. If it goes on behind closed doors then that is equally wrong and deserves equal consequences (in my opinion) but we don't typically see horses being punched and kicked in a temper on TV, not as a too-forceful aid or a correction, but as a punishment.

The people doing that in other sports are just sneakier than this woman I guess and know when they are being filmed, but the general public can't get virally outraged over videos that don't exist.
 
Miss_Millie said:
I'm actually shocked and disturbed at the number of people on here who are saying they've done something similar. I am yet to own a horse and view any time I get to spend with them as a privilege. I would never dream of punching or kicking a horse. There is a huge difference between being firm and being abusive towards an animal.

A lot of people are saying that she did not deserve to be sacked, but I know of teachers who were let go of for much less. Teaching children is a big responsibility and I think the majority of parents would not want someone so openly abusive towards an animal to be in charge of raising their kids. I agree that the media coverage of the video made this very public and therefore escalated the situation because there were a lot of eyes on it, but I still think that what she did was very wrong and that she has no business owning animals if she will behave so violently over such a tiny thing.
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Same, I have never kicked or hit a horse in the head. It’s not relevant if this happens in other places either.
I would have said something and I have said something before. Some of the worst abuse I have seen is frustrated parents of NSEA competitors.

I am proud to have been called a tree hugger for stopping a father repeatedly hitting a pony around the head while tied up.
We haven’t all done it and I think it’s particularly bad that it was done in front of children and she runs pony clubs.
 
Tiddlypom said:
Not comparable. Of course bad things happen in those events, but they are not usually committed by a teacher who will subsequently have sole charge of primary school age children.
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I think you might be wrong as many people competing or involved in public sport will teach and/or may well have sole charge of school age children. The same is true of musicians and all sorts of other competitors and performers.
 
Tiddlypom said:
Not comparable. Of course bad things happen in those events, but they are not usually committed by a teacher who will subsequently have sole charge of primary school age children.
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I think they are comparable.

Teachers don't have sole charge though, do they? There are other teachers and other adults around and probably at least 29 other children who would be very quick to tell someone in authority "teacher hit Jimmy".

Like it or not, it is still normal in the horse world to slap a horse. It has not been acceptable for half a century to slap someone else's child and there is no reason to assume that someone who slaps a horse is any danger to a child.
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palo1 said:
I quite agree!! I totally understand the difference too between my vegan French teacher and this incident - what I was trying to convey was that even when personal actions/views have a direct impact on education, there is a process which has to be gone through. Perhaps this teacher was halfway down that road already? If not, it seems extraordinary to me that she was just dismissed. It is bad news too as it sets a precedent for any pressure group to see as tactically worthwhile. I am glad that in the UK we don't have the same Pro Life/Pro Choice groups that the US has, for example...
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Therewas a case not so long ago where a teacher was targetted by apressure group because of an incident in school. The teacher is no longer working at the school but very definitely was not sacked. The general public and parents often have no clue about what has happened behind the scenes. But this hunting incident involved a private school, so who knows.....?
 
smolmaus said:
The last time we saw something like this WAS at the Olympics and there was massive outrage and consequences for the person who punched the horse and eventually for the sport as a whole.
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WITHIN her job role, where she clearly knows she has the world watching her and how she manages an equestrian team. Losing that job, that role, has to be part of the punishment. Very different where clearly an awful lot of people feel that this teacher could have made reparations in some other way and that losing her job was OTT. No-one, no-one, has said what she did was okay.
 
Birker2020 said:
To quote Tiddlypoms reply as she is more eloquent than me "Not comparable. Of course bad things happen in those events, but they are not usually committed by a teacher who will subsequently have sole charge of primary school age children."
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No, instead they are often committed by people of equal standing in society who just don’t get videoed.

As I edited my post, actually crap decisions do mount up into safeguarding issues for kids just like that pony threatening to kick the child. That was the outcome of several crap decisions made by parent/child.
 
palo1 said:
We always need a horse's respect and that doesn't ever come from abuse. But I think it is naive in the extreme to think that it is possible to never use a physical cue or reprimand that we may not want to use. I don't think in this instance the horse hitting was at all warranted; the woman lost her temper clearly. That isn't the way to handle a horse. Sadly it is sometimes the way some people handle life. I don't know what this woman was up against emotionally or mentally. There is no reason for her to hit the pony but there will be a reason why she lost the plot. Pony is fine I reckon - the woman is now in a bad place, worse than the moment before she hit the pony. I think a bit of proportion and compassion is a good thing too.
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agreed.
Last week i was lucky to not get seriously hurt in a horsebox by a horse that got itself in a pickle. i kicked it. i whacked it. i was trying to stop a bad situation from turning into one where one of us died, and my puny body is not strong enough to simply overpower a big horse with no threats of any kind. It is not nice to think back on but in the heat of the moment only brute force was going to stop that from going seriously wrong. there are often mitigating factors so to say you'd never lay a hand on a horse is nuts. if i hadn't been prepared to do that i'd have just signed its death warrant.
 
smolmaus said:
The last time we saw something like this WAS at the Olympics and there was massive outrage and consequences for the person who punched the horse and eventually for the sport as a whole.
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There were plenty of other horses hit with a whip during the last Olympics and at every other major equestrian event.

Like it or not, it is still routine in horse sport to hit horses with whips and in horse management to slap horses with a hand.

Losing her job and career is a disproportionate punishment for what she did, imo.
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milliepops said:
agreed.
Last week i was lucky to not get seriously hurt in a horsebox by a horse that got itself in a pickle. i kicked it. i whacked it. i was trying to stop a bad situation from turning into one where one of us died, and my puny body is not strong enough to simply overpower a big horse with no threats of any kind. It is not nice to think back on but in the heat of the moment only brute force was going to stop that from going seriously wrong. there are often mitigating factors so to say you'd never lay a hand on a horse is nuts. if i hadn't been prepared to do that i'd have just signed its death warrant.
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I'd hate to think what sort of trial by media you'd get if it was filmed. We all know of PETA campaigns that are way over the top, with no understanding of how to deal with a large animal, as they believe we shouldn't be handling these large animals at all and would have us banned. They have energised the debate to the level we are now facing.
 
sbloom said:
I'd hate to think what sort of trial by media you'd get if it was filmed. We all know of PETA campaigns that are way over the top, with no understanding of how to deal with a large animal, as they believe we shouldn't be handling these large animals at all and would have us banned. They have energised the debate to the level we are now facing.
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I quite agree. i was on the floor with a horse trying to get through the partitions in a moving truck, and i could only imagine it getting into the living and jumping through the cab. or breaking its neck in the back. or mine. or both. My alternative to battering the horse back into his space was to shut the door and let him kill himself :(
when you have orgs like PETA then it's impossible to have a rational debate about things.
 
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