SACKED

[Regandal]

Really? Is that even possible?

Which part?
From what I’ve read on H & H, that hunt are sabbed regularly. Presumably the risk of being filmed is high.

 

[Winters100]

I find this very sad. I hate what she did to the pony, terrible way of handling them and a terrible example to the children, BUT if she was teaching my children I would not be asking for her to be sacked. As she taught primary school I would seek to keep the information away from the children, but if they were told about it from other sources I would speak to them about it, and explain that sometimes good people do bad things, but it is not the sum of who they are. For me it is too harsh that she loses her livelihood over this incident, for sure I would have agreed if she had been banned by the hunt, and I believe that the Pony Club was right in dismissing her from her voluntary position, but for me a warning from her employer should have been enough.

Edited to add that so far as I know she has not been charged by the RSPCA, is this right? I am in no way defending what she did, but if an animal welfare organisation is in possession of video evidence, and has witnesses, but still decides not to prosecute, then to me an employer should think along the same lines of a warning.

 

[Flame_]

I should add, sm is here to stay. If you don’t want your misdeeds plastered all over it, don’t do any. The fact that the lady knew sabs were around (and likely to be filming) and still whacked the pony speaks volumes re her self control. Or lack of.

This just came up on my facebook

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-ne...BJm72mtUQQJ-4Zd0k0To-_2MqPNQ63th1QPtWqTevXy50

Mostly great person does a bad thing, is ripped apart online for it, it's too much for her to take and ends her life. This is the direction we are going in.

It's not OK this showcasing to the world everyone's misdemeanors. Anyone and everyone who ever does anything they shouldn't really, whether intentionally or unintentionally is fair game and could be next. Heaven help anyone else who is a convenient pawn in a massive agenda like sabotaging hunting. It's really scary how easily lives are being destroyed thanks to one filmed mistake.

 

[Bernster]

Some folks are horribly puritanical and vindictive. What she did was wrong but there are rules and laws for a reason and this awful trial by social media is very worrying.

 

[luckyoldme]

I really would like to think that at least normal procedure s have been followed and that this lady has been sacked because she has fallen short of the standards her employer expects from their employees.
It makes me feel a little bit uneasy and I can't help but wonder if this is more a case of trial by social media.

 

[HanniRT]

Back we come on a circle to what is so damaging to society about social media witch hunts.

Punishment should fit a crime. In this case, the crime is so small that it would never make it into court, yet a woman has had her career destroyed and quite possibly her retirement too, as this will badly affect her pension. A life sentence for smacking a pony.
.

This. Absolutely this with massive amounts of tinsel and flashing lights. Her actions and the punishment for it don't match.

 

[Cortez]

You claimed that no one can train a horse without hitting it occasionally. I disagreed.
You then went on to ask me if I've ever used negative reinforcement in training a horse - which was completely off topic because hitting is not an act of negative reinforcement, it's an act of positive punishment. Negative reinforcement is the removal of a negative stimuli - e.g. pressure. Positive punishment is the addition of a negative stimuli - e.g. a hit. Not sure how I can explain that any simpler.


Again we're not talking about negative reinforcement. But, regardless, what's your point? Sure, some circus trainers use negative reinforcement. Most zoo trainers use positive reinforcement. Some circus trainers use bullhooks and electric shocks. Different people train in different ways, and if something can be done with minimal to no use of aversives, I don't know why you'd want to use the one where the animal has to experience some discomfort.

This is getting waaay off the point of this thread, which was angry lady bad but overreaction of school also bad, but just to address your points above:

A. Semantics. I'm perfectly sure you understand what I mean by using the term negative reinforcement = administering a physical whack to discourage undesirable behaviours in the horse.

B. I'm also sure you can grasp that if something can be achieved without using a physical reprimand then of course that is the way it will be done. But it can't always be done that way. So what will you do then?

 

[sbloom]

This just came up on my facebook

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-ne...BJm72mtUQQJ-4Zd0k0To-_2MqPNQ63th1QPtWqTevXy50

Mostly great person does a bad thing, is ripped apart online for it, it's too much for her to take and ends her life. This is the direction we are going in.

It's not OK this showcasing to the world everyone's misdemeanors. Anyone and everyone who ever does anything they shouldn't really, whether intentionally or unintentionally is fair game and could be next. Heaven help anyone else who is a convenient pawn in a massive agenda like sabotaging hunting. It's really scary how easily lives are being destroyed thanks to one filmed mistake.

Caitlin Moran recently said we'll look back on these days of unregulated social media and wonder why on earth we allowed it, it has twisted society in an awful way and this is one example. We have a real lack of kindness and humanity, for forgiveness and acceptance and we have yet to see how it will continue to unravel us.

 

[laura_nash]

A. Semantics. I'm perfectly sure you understand what I mean by using the term negative reinforcement = administering a physical whack to discourage undesirable behaviours in the horse.

I accept that I am a pedantic nerd (and nothing like as good a horsewoman as you) but I do think semantics are important. Administering a physical whack to discourage undesirable behaviours isn't negative reinforcement, it's positive punishment (whether you agree with it or not). Negative reinforcement would be doing something unpleasant that stops when the horse does the wanted action (like circling a napping horse in tight circles until it decides to go forwards).

Of course what the lady this thread is about did isn't either of those things.

 

[Cortez]

I accept that I am a pedantic nerd (and nothing like as good a horsewoman as you) but I do think semantics are important. Administering a physical whack to discourage undesirable behaviours isn't negative reinforcement, it's positive punishment (whether you agree with it or not). Negative reinforcement would be doing something unpleasant that stops when the horse does the wanted action (like circling a napping horse in tight circles until it decides to go forwards).

Of course what the lady this thread is about did isn't either of those things.

Thank you. I understand the way the term is being used by others and it may well be the accepted, technically correct way to use it, but it's not how I "feel" it in my head, IYKWIM. The way negative reinforcement is described there ^^^ sounds like a singularly poor way to train a horse.

 

[Rowreach]

I never said it was, it just makes be laugh how the little clique come out in force everytime someone makes a point against me. Like backup. So sad really.

Me and ycbm in a clique ??? it's a Christmas miracle ??

 

[Red-1]

I hate what the woman did to the pony. I find the photos of his sweet face all scrunched up after being slapped heart breaking (as, I am sure, the young rider did too).

However, I also think that losing her job, in an unrelated industry, is... interesting.

I would understand it if she had a CONVICTION for cruelty. Not people's personal opinions, but an actual conviction. Then, I think someone with a conviction for animal cruelty should be fired from a school.

I am not aware she has been convicted of anything? As far as I am aware, in this country, people are innocent until proven guilty. I think they jumped the gun.

I don't think what she did was right (in case anyone was unclear). But, I do believe in following the process of the law.

I am surprised she didn't resign. I would imagine that work would have been difficult to say the least.

 

[laura_nash]

i'm at peace with what i did, and i agree (as does everyone) that what she did was not OK. My post was in response to several on this thread saying it was *never* acceptable to hit a horse. i don't believe it makes sense to have black and white views like that.

Did anyone actually say it's *never* acceptable to hit a horse? I couldn't see any post saying that but maybe I missed it I would find that view surprising in anyone whose actually spent any time handling them. Personally I would say its never helpful to hit a horse in anger, though understandable in some circumstances particularly where safety is involved.

I don't like the mob rule aspect of a lot of the sm stuff (which is why I'm not really on anything except a few horse forums) and certainly don't think it's ok for people to be advocating violence to the lady and her family if that is happening, but the employment aspect is different given her career. I just think that being a teacher is the wrong career for someone who can't control their temper to the point they lash out physically at a horse like that in public and in front of kids.

 

[Upthecreek]

I am not against animals being given physical corrections as part of training, but I believe they must be timely, appropriate to the situation and proportionate. There was no ‘training’ here. The lady had a bad day and lost her rag. Nobody learned anything.

And yes I have given a horse a whack to the shoulder for barging me and I have grabbed a dog by the scruff of the neck for attacking another dog, but these corrections were given immediately and were a single act of force appropriate to the situation which the animals understood and had somebody filmed them I am pretty sure would not have resulted in me being sacked from my job. The horse in that video had no idea what it was being hit and kicked for, no clue whatsoever.

 

[laura_nash]

Thank you. I understand the way the term is being used by others and it may well be the accepted, technically correct way to use it, but it's not how I "feel" it in my head, IYKWIM. The way negative reinforcement is described there ^^^ sounds like a singularly poor way to train a horse.

Sorry, thats a bad example. A better example might be using a rope halter, where the horse learns to avoid the mild discomfort when it tightens by going into the pressure to get the release. A lot of horse training uses negative reinforcement.

Personally I think they all have their place in animal training (positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement, positive punishment and negative punishment). An example of negative punishment would be me walking off with the bucket feed and not giving it because the horse was trying to barge (ie withholding the wanted thing to actively train away wrong behaviour). It's a shame those terms were chosen though, as "positive", "negative" and "punish" tend to have "good" and "bad" connotations in people's heads even though that is not what they mean in that context.

ETA Sorry for derailing the thread.

 

[char3479]

What she did brought the education trust which owns her school, and the school itself, into disrepute. I've know people sacked for less. It's all about reputation in education regardless of the child protection consequences. Anyone outed in the media as an abuser of animals is going to struggle to keep their job in any environment.

 

[milliepops]

Did anyone actually say it's *never* acceptable to hit a horse? I couldn't see any post saying that but maybe I missed it I would find that view surprising in anyone whose actually spent any time handling them.

well i don't want to make this post about me, since we've only just managed to pull it back on track but posts 123 and 141 have a clear "never hit a horse ever" about them. which is why i shared my Yes I Kicked My Horse, in extremis, story.

the bold part may well be relevant.

 

[Shilasdair]

I am genuinely at a loss as what you are trying to convey with this anecdote?

I know - and this is why you are nowhere near ready to buy your own horse.

 

[Shilasdair]

And let me guess: cured the brain tumours?

Oddly enough, both mares (horse and pony) never had another problem.

 

[PurBee]

Possibly her abusing the horse in the presence of minors i.e children, was reason for her dismissal, from a Safeguarding perspective.

Sad situation for all concerned.

 

[Goldenstar]

I do think it’s odd she been sacked before she’s been found guilty of anything .

 

[Rowreach]

What she did brought the education trust which owns her school, and the school itself, into disrepute. I've know people sacked for less. It's all about reputation in education regardless of the child protection consequences. Anyone outed in the media as an abuser of animals is going to struggle to keep their job in any environment.

And that, in a nutshell, is what some of us are concerned about.

 

[AmyMay]

c) If giraffes, elephants, lions, bears, zebras, and more can all be trained without positive punishment or even negative reinforcement in most cases - why can't horses?

I think you need to do a little bit more homework on that one…. ?

 

[laura_nash]

I do think it’s odd she been sacked before she’s been found guilty of anything .

Criminality and impact on your career aren't really related though are they? I can think of tons of things I could do that would get me sacked that wouldn't be remotely illegal.

 

[rextherobber]

I have to admit that years ago I had a horse who loved to squash you against things like the fence or the stable wall. I assume it was malicious, but whatever it was it was highly dangerous. A much loved and respected old school type vet came out to do my horses vaccination and he asked me if I had any issues with my horse so I told him about him squishing me against things at every opportunity.

He told me next time he did it to stick the end of my bic biro into my young horses ribs. I did so and he jumped about four foot into the air because it hurt him. But he never did it again.

If I'd ignored the vet and spent the next 11 months of the horses life pushing him and slapping him and hitting him to get him away from me it would have been much worse (for both of us and I could have been seriously injured). Cruel to be kind comes to mind. But not the same as kicking and punching a horse.

I had a horse who did the same, it was definitely to harm or intimidate. I just did everything out in the yard, by a gate I could escape through or over, if necessary. I never punished or reacted at all to the horse, other than keeping on doing whatever I was doing . The horse stopped very quickly, and once I'd had her a while and she'd settled down and got used to me, she stopped. It was possibly a year before I would let her get between me and the stable door, but she gradually forgot , or came to realise I was not going to repeat whatever horror someone inflicted on her. I have never behaved to anything living, in the way that that woman did. (Though I have, once, to my shame, beaten the everlasting c%&p out if a computer printer...)

 

[Goldenstar]

And the courts are going to be full of cases for unfair dismissal

 

[Goldenstar]

Criminality and impact on your career aren't really related though are they? I can think of tons of things I could do that would get me sacked that wouldn't be remotely illegal.

Such as .

 

[laura_nash]

Such as .

Saying something rude online about one of our customers (or being filmed saying something and it being posted online). Even if it wasn't in a context related to work (our customers are big companies and I have contact with them as a member of the public / client).

 

[onemoretime]

This just came up on my facebook

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-ne...BJm72mtUQQJ-4Zd0k0To-_2MqPNQ63th1QPtWqTevXy50

Mostly great person does a bad thing, is ripped apart online for it, it's too much for her to take and ends her life. This is the direction we are going in.

It's not OK this showcasing to the world everyone's misdemeanors. Anyone and everyone who ever does anything they shouldn't really, whether intentionally or unintentionally is fair game and could be next. Heaven help anyone else who is a convenient pawn in a massive agenda like sabotaging hunting. It's really scary how easily lives are being destroyed thanks to one filmed mistake.

This exactly. I have been very worried that this is how it might end and that is not good for anyone!

 

[Shilasdair]

I have to admit that years ago I had a horse who loved to squash you against things like the fence or the stable wall. I assume it was malicious, but whatever it was it was highly dangerous. A much loved and respected old school type vet came out to do my horses vaccination and he asked me if I had any issues with my horse so I told him about him squishing me against things at every opportunity.

He told me next time he did it to stick the end of my bic biro into my young horses ribs. I did so and he jumped about four foot into the air because it hurt him. But he never did it again.

If I'd ignored the vet and spent the next 11 months of the horses life pushing him and slapping him and hitting him to get him away from me it would have been much worse (for both of us and I could have been seriously injured). Cruel to be kind comes to mind. But not the same as kicking and punching a horse.

And if hunt sabs had been videoing you 'stabbing your horse with a pen' you'd have faced the same social media storm and dismissal that the teacher did.
After all the horse was just moving towards you to be friendly (as the horse in the video moved towards the person, too).

Now, I'm not disagreeing with what you did - but surely you can see the parallels?