Should there be a weight limit for people at shows (and if so, what and how?!)

[palo1]

I’m genuinely not sure either but think that for some cohorts it would need some serious planning as to how to avoid unintended consequences and still maintain good welfare.

Do you think that having really clear guidelines/regulations would be helpful from a MH point of view? I know that many people I work with who have MH issues don't really struggle so much with regulations as situations where things are NOT clear. It's just an idea I have from talking through things with people really. If such a scheme were given time to come in to force too, people may be able to get their heads round it better. It may also be possible for someone really struggling with their MH to not have to know their own weight but to get the professional doing the weighing just to confirm that regs had been met? Not sure if that would be useful or not as so much anxiety can be felt around uncertainty and specific events. However that anxiety doesn't entitle someone to ride if that is damaging to a horse I don't think. Very difficult to get right...

 

[zaminda]

I wonder how much the minimum weight limit is as a % of those Diddy lean Arabs…!

In many cases a lot less than the minimum weight they have to carry at FEI! In my opinion weight is one of the biggest reasons so many break.

 

[GreysForDayz]

When I was at my heaviest I think I was just over 15% for MrT. I felt a bit awkward about it but consoled myself with the 20% limit AND he seemed to be coping fine. Until I lost the weight quickly and felt the difference in him and the way he could move under me as a direct comparison. I rode him at about 12 stone and bit then the next time I sat on him was a few weeks later at just under 11 stone (we didn't do much while actually losing the weight... it was hard!) and he felt completely different. So much more freedom in his movement. I could have stayed at 12 stone something, full up against his 15%, and I wouldn't have known he was finding it hard and I could have told myself that up to 20% was fine. It was only the comparison over the short time scale that made it really clear to me that less than 15% is actually very much different.

Absolutely noone would have looked at me and said I was too big or that the horse was struggling either. I don't think. To be fair I don't think he was "struggling" but there was a bit of a line that had been crossed in terms of how much extra strain was being put upon him. I feel a bit bad about it but life is full of learning opportunities isn't it?

I'd rather eat nothing but salad ever again than put that much weight on a horse again.

I find posts like this so motivating. I'm currently 13 1/2 stone but would ideally like to be around the 11 mark as I know it would make my horse so much more comfortable. I look completely fine on him and am well within the "limit" he can carry but I feel like if we have the opportunity to make any part of them more comfortable then we should really take it.

 

[PurBee]

Just doing some sums has me realise why this topic is a concern to all riders. Tack and clothes im allowing 5kg, not sure on that but a rough guess…(not including western saddles!)

There’s a vast difference between 5%:

At 10% hardly anyone but children and very light adults would be able to ride, and 20% would allow almost everyone to find a mount:

e.g 700kg horse could be ridden by a 10 stone (65kg) naked weight + clothes+ tack For 10%

At 15% - 15 stone on a 700kg horse.

At 20%, 20 stone on a 700kg horse - most would find a mount.

Extrapolate that for the average 500kg horse = 10% - 7 stone (45kg), 15% - 10.6 stone (67.5kg), 20% - 14 stone (90kg)

My horses are between 450-500 fit weight, for 10% id have to slim right down, unhealthy weight and ride naked and bare back! ?? im rural, no-one would see except the pervy farmer but id be going so fast i’d be a blur!
I wouldnt do that, couldnt be 10% for them if i tried, so would not ride, keep them or sell them and find a very large horse which id prefer not to, so i’d not ride.

A 10% ruling would shatter the industry in one swoop.

But if a plethora of studies and science says a horse experiences phyiological stress/damage beyond 10% we would have to face-up to these facts.

The crux of this matter is to answer if we ultimately love horses more than we love to ride them? If yes, we don’t care what % turns out to be healthy for them to carry, we’ll give up riding happily for their welfare.

If no, we’re knowingly causing harm for our riding satisfaction, and that requires some self-reflection.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Just doing some sums has me realise why this topic is a concern to all riders. Tack and clothes im allowing 5kg, not sure on that but a rough guess…(not including western saddles!)

My tack and summer clothing (as per my avatar) add 2.5 stone, which is 15.9kg.

That was an 18' leather Ideal VSD saddle, girth, stirrup leathers and sprenger irons. Leather snaffle bridle, reins, neck strap. HS1 crash helmet, hit air jacket, cotton jodhs, polo shirt, leather half chaps, short leather boots.

You could shave a bit off this weight if you use synthetic tack.

 

[ihatework]

Just doing some sums has me realise why this topic is a concern to all riders. Tack and clothes im allowing 5kg, not sure on that but a rough guess…(not including western saddles!)

There’s a vast difference between 5%:

At 10% hardly anyone but children and very light adults would be able to ride, and 20% would allow almost everyone to find a mount:

e.g 700kg horse could be ridden by a 10 stone (65kg) naked weight + clothes+ tack For 10%

At 15% - 15 stone on a 700kg horse.

At 20%, 20 stone on a 700kg horse - most would find a mount.

Extrapolate that for the average 500kg horse = 10% - 7 stone (45kg), 15% - 10.6 stone (67.5kg), 20% - 14 stone (90kg)

My horses are between 450-500 fit weight, for 10% id have to slim right down, unhealthy weight and ride naked and bare back! ?? im rural, no-one would see except the pervy farmer but id be going so fast i’d be a blur!
I wouldnt do that, couldnt be 10% for them if i tried, so would not ride, keep them or sell them and find a very large horse which id prefer not to, so i’d not ride.

A 10% ruling would shatter the industry in one swoop.

But if a plethora of studies and science says a horse experiences phyiological stress/damage beyond 10% we would have to face-up to these facts.

The crux of this matter is to answer if we ultimately love horses more than we love to ride them? If yes, we don’t care what % turns out to be healthy for them to carry, we’ll give up riding happily for their welfare.

If no, we’re knowingly causing harm for our riding satisfaction, and that requires some self-reflection.

Quite eye opening isn’t it.
For me, pragmatically, I’d probably lean towards a max of 15% naked weight, with tack added on. Provided fit, healthy well conformed horse.
Reducing the % for compromised horses.

 

[palo1]

Just doing some sums has me realise why this topic is a concern to all riders. Tack and clothes im allowing 5kg, not sure on that but a rough guess…(not including western saddles!)

There’s a vast difference between 5%:

At 10% hardly anyone but children and very light adults would be able to ride, and 20% would allow almost everyone to find a mount:

e.g 700kg horse could be ridden by a 10 stone (65kg) naked weight + clothes+ tack For 10%

At 15% - 15 stone on a 700kg horse.

At 20%, 20 stone on a 700kg horse - most would find a mount.

Extrapolate that for the average 500kg horse = 10% - 7 stone (45kg), 15% - 10.6 stone (67.5kg), 20% - 14 stone (90kg)

My horses are between 450-500 fit weight, for 10% id have to slim right down, unhealthy weight and ride naked and bare back! ?? im rural, no-one would see except the pervy farmer but id be going so fast i’d be a blur!
I wouldnt do that, couldnt be 10% for them if i tried, so would not ride, keep them or sell them and find a very large horse which id prefer not to, so i’d not ride.

A 10% ruling would shatter the industry in one swoop.

But if a plethora of studies and science says a horse experiences phyiological stress/damage beyond 10% we would have to face-up to these facts.

The crux of this matter is to answer if we ultimately love horses more than we love to ride them? If yes, we don’t care what % turns out to be healthy for them to carry, we’ll give up riding happily for their welfare.

If no, we’re knowingly causing harm for our riding satisfaction, and that requires some self-reflection.

I think we all know though that any riding/weight on a horse is likely to cause some 'damage' or discomfort; ideally horses probably wouldn't be ridden in fact. But human history is utterly entangled with horses so it may be more difficult and potentially more damaging to horses as a species if they were never ridden/only existed in some increasingly contested and narrow 'wilderness'. I mean I would much rather only have to carry 10% of any weight than 20% - not sure how much the 5% contributes to damage more than the 10%. I guess that is why we need more information etc.

 

[sbloom]

I think we all know though that any riding/weight on a horse is likely to cause some 'damage' or discomfort; ideally horses probably wouldn't be ridden in fact. But human history is utterly entangled with horses so it may be more difficult and potentially more damaging to horses as a species if they were never ridden/only existed in some increasingly contested and narrow 'wilderness'. I mean I would much rather only have to carry 10% of any weight than 20% - not sure how much the 5% contributes to damage more than the 10%. I guess that is why we need more information etc.

It's why I've changed my approach so much to saddle fitting, we need to do everything in our power to enable them to carry us without compromise. I see some horrors out there...

 

[palo1]

It's why I've changed my approach so much to saddle fitting, we need to do everything in our power to enable them to carry us without compromise. I see some horrors out there...

Yes, I can imagine. I am immensely grateful for my saddle fitter who has given really sound, honest advice for over 20 years and as a result I have had happy, sound horses that can carry me even when I have been at the top of the 15% limit. Following this discussion I am hugely relieved that I haven't been over that with my lot though it could be easily, very easily done. I now feel even more committed to losing more weight tbh even when that is very hard. I don't have problems with food but I do enjoy food and wine, I love cooking and am, honestly, greedy. I would love to think I could get to 10% of my lightest horse's weight but I cannot imagine that being possible. I will have to identify the best weight I can manage to sustain I guess. Just walking away from the thought of a piece of toast lol!

 

[sbloom]

As I always say, look at Rebelfit, even if just to read their posts on the philosophy of health and weight loss, if you keep saying you're greedy a. it's not true, and b. it's not helpful . We use such negative terms for natural behaviours, "greed" is natural, it kept us alive when we needed every calorie we could find, it's just some people find it easier than others to ignore that drive, some don't have it at all.

 

[PurBee]

My tack and summer clothing (as per my avatar) add 2.5 stone, which is 15.9kg.

That was an 18' leather Ideal VSD saddle, girth, stirrup leathers and sprenger irons. Leather snaffle bridle, reins, neck strap. HS1 crash helmet, hit air jacket, cotton jodhs, polo shirt, leather half chaps, short leather boots.

You could shave a bit off this weight if you use synthetic tack.

I was way off with tack and clothing allowance - it all adds up doesnt it.

To be fair to both ponies/horses and riders i think some % guide should be enforced - start at 20% so that allows all to have a mount. This 20% is viewed as too generous by current studies, yet its a starting point isn’t it, rather than have no regulations at all. This would enable the subject to become better understood. Help professionals have official guidelines to counsel clients on etc.
A 20% enforcement would give all scope to ride something, but stop the worst people/pony combinations from happening - like more than 8.5 stone on a 13hh 350kg pony. (Considering your 2.5 stone clothes and tack TP)

 

[Tiddlypom]

My saddle fitter has, since January, been weighing the rider inc tack. It's optional, of course.

Brave, and forward thinking.

 

[SEL]

There are limits for games
'
A rider weighing over 54kg may not ride a pony 128cm or under.
▶
A rider weighing over 60kg may not ride a pony 133cm or under.
▶
A rider weighing over 66kg may not ride a pony 138cm or under.


Though weighing kids can be problematic, more so than just 'hurt feelings'.

Those are actually higher kg weights than I was expecting.

My friend's daughter does mounted games. She had to move onto a bigger pony when she hit 13 purely because she got heavier (she's still tiny!). It was all handled very sensitively and her biggest gripe was she had to learn to vault onto a slightly bigger pony. I think because the rules are the same for all she didn't think it was in the slightest bit personal.

I think if it was a criteria of competing and it was in all the upfront paperwork that riders should be below 15% of their horse's ideal bodyweight (& please ask your vet if you aren't sure) then anyone who was excessively over this would just stay home. Hopefully in time it would become the standard and no one would take offence

 

[TPO]

I'm sure this has been asked and answered before but for my sieve brain...

My western saddle weighs circa 25kg including heavier (than wood) metal engraved stirrups. I actually think its heavier based in previous saddles that I've owned and weighed. This is before 3/4" thick wool felt pads and cinch/rear cinch and other tack (some western breastcollars are pretty heavy).

The party line is that due to the size of the tree, the leather skirts and the wide sheepskin panel undersides that this large area distributes weight and pressure "better" than an English treed saddle.

I understand that weight is still weight but equated it to having to carry 20kg I a random backpack compared to a fitted backpack with the straps correctly adjusted.

Doing my bad maths if I took 20-25kg off the 15% weight that makes it 8st. I've not been that weight since I was 15.

I know that common sense has to be applied. There's a difference between a 14.3hh QH and a 14.3hh fine show pony for example.

But yeah, was just wondering how heavier (but more load bearing area?) saddles fit into the discussion

 

[sbloom]

In many cases a lot less than the minimum weight they have to carry at FEI! In my opinion weight is one of the biggest reasons so many break.

I'd say they break because they're in compensatory movement patterns, carrying too much weight is one factor that contributes to that, but only one.

But yeah, was just wondering how heavier (but more load bearing area?) saddles fit into the discussion

You answered it yourself really, weight is weight. I actually think the historical fixation on spreading weight longitudinally along the horse's back, and laterally across the seat especially has done everyone a disservice. If we can unweight the rider's seatbones (needed in so many cases), get riders into a properly supported neutral pelvis (the correct 3 point seat), sit them over the horse's centre of gravity and get weight down their inner thighs, then the horse can carry us more easily full stop.

If you sat on the back of your long, heavy saddle you'd cause more issues than if you sat as above, so it's just never as simple as that sadly.

 

[Orangehorse]

Some of the weight bearing research was done by the USA cavalry, when they were loading pack horses with known weights and measured over known work load and effort, ie. length of time working, journey, etc and I think it was an extensive test and the 20% came from that.

You have to wonder with western saddles and large men riding cowponies for hours. But I suppose that the cow pony was a tool for work and the question of long and sound life was secondary.

 

[palo1]

As I always say, look at Rebelfit, even if just to read their posts on the philosophy of health and weight loss, if you keep saying you're greedy a. it's not true, and b. it's not helpful . We use such negative terms for natural behaviours, "greed" is natural, it kept us alive when we needed every calorie we could find, it's just some people find it easier than others to ignore that drive, some don't have it at all.

Let me modify 'greedy' to 'very much enjoying the taste, texture and smell of good food, which I also enjoy creating' lol! I will look at rebelfit as happy to do anything that makes weight loss or healthy maitenance easier but I think I have a good relationship with food on the whole. I enjoy reading about it, understanding it's history and provenance etc and I rarely look at my body (even when over ideal weight) negatively. I am going to go and look at Rebelfit now though. Thank you.

 

[TPO]

Food (lettuce!) for thought

Most types of QH are 15hh or less, the Pleasure types are 16.2hh range. Given the weight of the saddles using 15-20% rule tops out under 12st if a horse was 500kg. I've never put a stick on mine and I'm useless at guessing but I'd say he's between 14.2 -15hh and weight tapes in around 480kg. He has a well sprung barrel and I know tapes aren't accurate.

Reining was in WEG, I think they used to publish riders stats but maybe that was just the Olympics. I bet the weights of some of those riders would ???

 

[ester]

Some of the weight bearing research was done by the USA cavalry, when they were loading pack horses with known weights and measured over known work load and effort, ie. length of time working, journey, etc and I think it was an extensive test and the 20% came from that.

You have to wonder with western saddles and large men riding cowponies for hours. But I suppose that the cow pony was a tool for work and the question of long and sound life was secondary.

Except it’s also best not to break the tools you’ve spent time training

 

[Tiddlypom]

TPO, does your Western saddle really weigh 25kg inc stirrups? Without any other tack?

How on earth do you lift on the horse (not kidding)?

 

[ycbm]

TPO, does your Western saddle really weigh 25kg inc stirrups? Without any other tack?

How on earth do you lift on the horse (not kidding)?

I can barely lift my friend's western saddles. I think she said hers is 30kg.
.

 

[PapaverFollis]

25kg is very heavy! I couldn't lift that to horse's back height I don't think. ?

 

[Barton Bounty]

Holy moly that is a workout itself ?

 

[planete]

Lifting a western saddle onto a horse's back is a knack! You actually swing it upwards and try to let it come down onto the horse's back as gently as possible. Well perhaps not if you are 6ft and built like Arnold but I had to as rather vertically challenged.

 

[Barton Bounty]

Lifting a western saddle onto a horse's back is a knack! You actually swing it upwards and try to let it come down onto the horse's back as gently as possible. Well perhaps not if you are 6ft and built like Arnold but I had to as rather vertically challenged.

Id have no chance lol, im vertically challenged too ?

 

[TPO]

I think so. I've not weighed this one but will do when I have the energy to lug it back up to the house.

The shipping label said 20kg buy it was self printed. I've posted lighter saddles and they've been 27kg boxed up and this saddle is the heaviest I've owned (or I'm weaker ?). It's the first I've had with metal stirrups and there's a bit of weight in them when I stripped the saddle to clean and polish them.

This is the beast in question


This is it on my beast. He's not standing funny because it's too heavy, he's just always very keen to sneak out his stable to the hay stored across the way ? Also excuse zero muscle tone or fitness, he wasn't/isn't long off box rest after an attempted amputation (which successfully got him out of going to the breed show almost as if he planned it ?).



As to saddling. My usual method is to hook the offside stirrup over the horn then gently lift it on. Having said that I've never had to saddle anything bigger than 15.2hh.

The new way that I'm trying to figure out is much easier but I've not got getting th3 saddle into position sorted yet. So if you were on left side of saddle as its on a rack you put right hand onto offside cantle and left hand under front skirts then rest it vertically on your hip. From there it's surprising easy just to swing it on (admittedly I have a few practice goes on the gate). Rubbish description so I'll find a video...

Skip to 1.28 to see how he holds it

 

[sbloom]

Look where it sits you, it has great forward balance from what I can see (I don't fit Western at all) so he's carrying you on the strongest part of his back, if you then have weight on your pubic arch and thighs you're in the most efficient position for him to carry you.

 

[TPO]

Look where it sits you, it has great forward balance from what I can see (I don't fit Western at all) so he's carrying you on the strongest part of his back, if you then have weight on your pubic arch and thighs you're in the most efficient position for him to carry you.

This is a reining saddle so they have the biggest slope to make it easier to sit sliding stops and swing your fenders/legs forward. "Sitting on your back pockets" is a thing.

Pleasure and equitation are similar alignments to English saddles. Ranch saddles have flatter seats and cutting saddles are flat and hard. I've never seen a roping saddle in the flesh so not 100% sure of their seats.

But yeah, can't get 15% on small horses including 20kg+ tack to add up and not sure if that's a "thing" or if the saddle's wider area and pad do offset the weight at all and/or if the "strength" of QHs (& stocky natives/cobs) alters the weight calculation.

If it does how do you factor in the common sense element because its clearly not that common!

 

[palo1]

I wouldn't have a hope of getting within 15% with a 25kg saddle though I did have a western type endurance saddle that only weighed 8kg. I imagine a lot of people would struggle to get the maths to work with such a hefty beast of a saddle tbh. My endurance western saddle was nowhere near as fancy and nice as yours lol!!

 

[sbloom]

This is a reining saddle so they have the biggest slope to make it easier to sit sliding stops and swing your fenders/legs forward. "Sitting on your back pockets" is a thing.

Oh I hear you, I rode my whole life on my pockets I think, down to not finding any saddle truly comfortable!

It's where the deepest part is, it's more forwards than where most English (all the usual English brands, and some German etc) saddles sit you.