Should there be a weight limit for people at shows (and if so, what and how?!)

[ester]

It's a beautiful looking saddle tpo.

 

[Goldenstar]

It is a lovely looking saddle and it matches the horse beautifully.

 

[Winters100]

To clarify I meant it’s not about feelings because mental illness is also not about feelings and some people seemed to have skipped this bit in terms of weighing people and the only issue being ‘feelings’

But are you then saying that animal welfare should be sacrificed because of the mental health issues of humans? Clearly a 'voluntary' scheme is not working, so something needs to change. If riders were weighed prior to competing then those who did not agree could choose to not compete. Just the same as when I grew up with a disabled Mother there were many activities which we could not do as a family, but we did not whinge and whine about it, just found other things to do.

However it is enforced, whether by weighing all, or by selecting those combinations who appear to exceed the limit, I believe that something needs to be done to remedy this problem. Should the welfare of the animals not come above any physical or mental health issues of the riders who choose to partake in this hobby?

 

[maggiestar]

Riding horses is therapeutic but we can't put our own mental health above the physical health and comfort of horses. We have other options available to us whereas horses have no options at all.

 

[ponynutz]

So we're not allowed to "fat shame" but we can use derogatory language to criticise a person who is a healthy weight? ? 10.5 stone is going to be bang in the middle of healthy weight for many people.

Yes, I'm perfectly bang-on in the middle BMI wise but weight distribution and being in the horsey world in general has led to having a lot of this ^^ I'm sure others face it too and it's a crying shame in this day and age people have such a problem with not being the beauty standard. Understand encouraging people who are unhealthy to become healthy but recognising the difference between obesity and unfortunate weight distribution is key - we can do it in our horses, why not in us too?

In terms of horses we really, really need some more study to be done into this topic which hopefully will allow less stigma around weight in the equestrian world.

 

[Caol Ila]

If you rent or buy a pair of skis, and the ski shop adjusts the bindings to your boots, they will ask for your weight and skiing ability. It's purely a safety thing. The settings on the bindings dictates how easily (or not) they release, and that's determined by the weight and skill of the skiier. You want them to pop off if you crash so you don't break your leg, but you don't want them to pop off unexpectedly when cranking around a mogul or dropping off a cornice. A novice skiier, who isn't hucking cornices, will have them on a low setting, as they will probably fall a lot and they aren't skiing aggressively. An advanced skiier will have them on a high setting, but a lightweight advanced skiier will have them on a lower setting than a heavier one. A heavier skiier of any abilty puts more torque on the ski, so the bindings need to be adjusted for that. Ski shops just ask you. They don't make a big deal out of it.

 

[Tiddlypom]

It is indeed a lovely looking saddle, TPO, but at c25kg+ with stirrups any perceived benefit of spreading the rider's weight over a wider area is surely negated by the extra weight of the saddle itself over a well fitting English type saddle.

It must weigh at least 15kg more than a conventional leather English saddle inc stirrups, bearing in mind that my entire conventional English leather tack and all my clothing inc hat and boots etc weighs in at 15.9kg.

That's grand if the rider can still do the weights. I certainly couldn't .

 

[TPO]

It is indeed a lovely looking saddle, TPO, but at c25kg+ with stirrups any perceived benefit of spreading the rider's weight over a wider area is surely negated by the extra weight of the saddle itself over a well fitting English type saddle.

It must weigh at least 15kg more than a conventional leather English saddle inc stirrups, bearing in mind that my entire conventional English leather tack and all my clothing inc hat and boots etc weighs in at 15.9kg.

Yeah and that's what's got me wondering.

Probably wording this badly but I'll give it a go... does the extra weight of the saddle get balanced out by the weight distribution. So yes it's 25kg (for easy counting) but does it offset say 10kg of rider weight? Not sure if that makes sense.

As said somewhere up thread horses are often used as tools and people definitely want their good horses to be and stay sound, fit and healthy ao that they are usable. The Western saddle has been in use for hundreds of years without much in the way of modification and I'm pretty sure that the majority of riders are over 8st.

My bad maths days that if you have a 500kg horse and 25kg saddle/gear then the heaviest weight at 20% is 11st 11lbs naked. 15% of a 480kg horse -25kg saddle is a naked weight of 7st 5lb. 15% of 500kg horse -25kg saddle is naked weight of 7st 12lb

I'd feel comfortable assuming that the large majority of people riding in western saddles are over 15% with their saddles. I'd also hazard a guess that a lot of ranchers are over the 20% weight along with male trainers and that's before looking at the leisure industry.

So I guess what I'm wondering is; can certain breeds/types comfortably carry more or are we (generic) turning a blind eye because it's something that needs to happen to get a job done (ranchers)/that people want to do for their enjoyment (competition/leisure industry)?

From what I read American QHs get referred to in the 1000 - 1200 lb range, so 480 -545kg. It's not like they are on bigger horses. Having said that just did 20% calc on 545kg horse -25kg saddle and that's a naked weight of 13st 2lb.

Another pondering is that QHs, generally speaking, muscle up quite well. So they may be smaller in volume/circumference but as muscle is more dense they actually weigh more than a weight tape would indicate. Also if well muscled are they able to carry more because they should therefore be stronger? Is that maybe how they "manage"?

Just wondering if any of these variables actually matter or if people (me, who will never be in the 8st range never mind 7!) do a lot of mental gymnastics to justify things to themselves so they can keep doing as they please.

 

[PapaverFollis]

It is possible that the "tipping point" (where they move from acceptable strain, let's say, to a damaging kind of strain) could be higher for a quarter horse because of their overall stockiness and robustness from the generations of being hard-working horses. But I also wonder about mental gymnastics.

If you have a lighter weight saddle that fits, TPO, you could see if you feel a difference? Or even if you can sit on bareback, though that might introduce more variables. Some of the ride tracking apps measure stride length too don't they (though god knows how accurate they are)? You could do an experiment.

 

[ester]

But are you then saying that animal welfare should be sacrificed because of the mental health issues of humans? Clearly a 'voluntary' scheme is not working, so something needs to change. If riders were weighed prior to competing then those who did not agree could choose to not compete. Just the same as when I grew up with a disabled Mother there were many activities which we could not do as a family, but we did not whinge and whine about it, just found other things to do.

However it is enforced, whether by weighing all, or by selecting those combinations who appear to exceed the limit, I believe that something needs to be done to remedy this problem. Should the welfare of the animals not come above any physical or mental health issues of the riders who choose to partake in this hobby?

No I'm not saying that, I think you are extrapolating.
I'm just annoyed at people repeatedly mentioning hurt feelings which suggests that they don't understand the issue/associated risks at all and they do need to be taken into consideration when planning what to do about it.

 

[ycbm]

I think there are differences breed wise, TPO. Particularly thinking of QH, their whole training and breeding seems to me to be about lifting the feet as little distance from the floor as is practical with taking a stride of a reasonable (but still short compared to other disciplines) length. It's about covering distance while conserving energy.

I think this will inevitably mean that a QH can comfortably carry more weight than a horse with more suspension in its paces.

I still worry about the weights I see small QH carrying, though.
.

 

[Caol Ila]

There was a guy at my barn with two tiny QHs - far tinier than TPOs and others I've seen - who rode Western, and he was a substantial guy. Over 6' tall, and quite broad. If him and his saddle were anywhere near 20%, I'll eat my hat. Those horses were about 14.2, with little teacup feet.

Too many QHs are bred with teeny weeny feet and straight hocks. I think this is rewarded in the American version of showing, which is why it's gotten so prevalent in the breed, even in non-showing horses. TPO's horse is more correct than many I have seen, including the one I owned as a kid. That horse would not have been idea for a large guy in a Western saddle.

It doesn't help that a lot of the Western showing disciplines put the big money on 2-year old classes, so (a) everyone, including hefty blokes, rides 2-year olds and (b) no one actually cares about the longevity.

You can still buy a solid, strong ranch-bred QH, but you have to dig through a lot of dross to find one.

 

[TPO]

I think there are differences breed wise, TPO. Particularly thinking of QH, their whole training and breeding seems to me to be about lifting the feet as little distance from the floor as is practical with taking a stride of a reasonable (but still short compared to other disciplines) length. It's about covering distance while conserving energy.

I think this will inevitably mean that a QH can comfortably carry more weight than a horse with more suspension in its paces.

I still worry about the weights I see small QH carrying, though.
.

Yeah and this is where the grey area is. I could "justify" my* 20% weight + 25kg saddle because my* horse is fit, strong, stocky, well built etc AND smaller horses carry more doing more rigorous tasks. So is it actually OK because those horses ARE fine or is it just OK because I've seen worse?

*generically speaking

I've said upthread I didn't ride when I was 2st heavier and I'm not riding just now because I still feel too big in myself for the horse and also my centre of gravity/point of balance is altered with the excess weight plus I'm also unfit and have a core like jelly. My horse is a good but *if* anything were to spook him he can drop a shoulder and spin on a penny. I'd be a goner currently. I'm honestly fed up telling folk I'm too heavy when they ask because all they do is rhyme off the plethora of bigger people riding. Also my horse is coming off yonks of box rest for 2 incidents and been out of work since before last winter so not fair on him either. Do hoping his prep work strengthens him and helps me knock a few more kilos off.

But I could look at Ray the Goth and Blog of a Cob and think thst since I'm much smaller it would be OK for me to ride if I was looking for a way to justify it iykwim.

There are too many different types of QH to be able to say that they are X, Y or Z. Halters have tiny hooves and straight hocks but they're not intended for ridden careers these days. Equally Pleasure horses wouldn't be expected to stand up to ranch work. Reiners, that are the type most likely seen, tend to be small too ~14.2hh and quite a few in thr WEG American teams have been larger people which hasn't helped perception

 

[Roxylola]

We can't in reality stop people who are too heavy for their own horses from riding them though. People will ride, people will have their social media. While their isn't anything in place to regulate competing it looks acceptable. If there were something in place to ensure competing riders were on a suitable size of horse it would at least be a clear boundary

 

[Caol Ila]

Hah, I remember the QH drop-and-spin. Had me on the floor many times. My Highland has a mean spin, but he lifts his neck and shoulders, which makes it far easier to stick!

 

[marmalade76]

Yeah and that's what's got me wondering.

Probably wording this badly but I'll give it a go... does the extra weight of the saddle get balanced out by the weight distribution. So yes it's 25kg (for easy counting) but does it offset say 10kg of rider weight? Not sure if that makes sense.

As said somewhere up thread horses are often used as tools and people definitely want their good horses to be and stay sound, fit and healthy ao that they are usable. The Western saddle has been in use for hundreds of years without much in the way of modification and I'm pretty sure that the majority of riders are over 8st.

My bad maths days that if you have a 500kg horse and 25kg saddle/gear then the heaviest weight at 20% is 11st 11lbs naked. 15% of a 480kg horse -25kg saddle is a naked weight of 7st 5lb. 15% of 500kg horse -25kg saddle is naked weight of 7st 12lb

I'd feel comfortable assuming that the large majority of people riding in western saddles are over 15% with their saddles. I'd also hazard a guess that a lot of ranchers are over the 20% weight along with male trainers and that's before looking at the leisure industry.

So I guess what I'm wondering is; can certain breeds/types comfortably carry more or are we (generic) turning a blind eye because it's something that needs to happen to get a job done (ranchers)/that people want to do for their enjoyment (competition/leisure industry)?

From what I read American QHs get referred to in the 1000 - 1200 lb range, so 480 -545kg. It's not like they are on bigger horses. Having said that just did 20% calc on 545kg horse -25kg saddle and that's a naked weight of 13st 2lb.

Another pondering is that QHs, generally speaking, muscle up quite well. So they may be smaller in volume/circumference but as muscle is more dense they actually weigh more than a weight tape would indicate. Also if well muscled are they able to carry more because they should therefore be stronger? Is that maybe how they "manage"?

Just wondering if any of these variables actually matter or if people (me, who will never be in the 8st range never mind 7!) do a lot of mental gymnastics to justify things to themselves so they can keep doing as they please.

I do think that certain breeds & types are better weight carriers than others - natives, cobs, arabs, QH, all, I would say would cope better with a higher % of their own weight than say, TBs, sports horses, warmbloods and even some of the taller heavy horses. Height doesn't necessarily add strength, shorter levers are less likely to break.

 

[TPO]

I do think that certain breeds & types are better weight carriers than others - natives, cobs, arabs, QH, all, I would say would cope better with a higher % of their own weight than say, TBs, sports horses, warmbloods and even some of the taller heavy horses. Height doesn't necessarily add strength, shorter levers are less likely to break.

Yeah and I guess that's what stops it being as simple as standing on scales holding your tack.

I'm not anti-"something should be done" at all but people determined to ride regardless for their own enjoyment are going to do it. Those high profile social media accounts prove it. Those accounts also disprove the alleged fat shaming because both riders are grossly obese yet very much out in public. No one has "shamed" them into considering their animals' welfare ?

I probably wouldn't harm my horse riding him but *I* want to reduce that potential so I'll try to continue losing weight. Others obviously don't feel the same. But having said thst I had an amount in mind but thats wasn't including the 25kg saddle. I'd have to be a few weeks into the decomposing process to ever be 7st!

 

[Goldenstar]

I think discussing this issue openly places like here is good it gets it’s all out there and I don’t think anyone should be shy of saying it’s simply not ok to be too heavy for your horse
Weight is a sensitive issue that’s a given but horse welfare is more important no one needs to ride and you need to buy the horse that’s the right size for you .
I have now bought bigger horses than I did when I was younger slimmer and fitter .
People need to be realistic about this .
Being fat is so normalised now it’s extremely sad because just like a horse there’s a price to pay down the line for being too fat .

 

[marmalade76]

I saw a pic of RtG with her horse, I think it was on the Harry Hall Facebook page. First comment I read was something along the lines of "lovely to see a normal size person in these ads". Since when was being morbidly obese normal? What is wrong with people? I suppose there is a chance that she was being sarcastic ?

 

[WelshD]

With regards to showing I think its going to get very complicated to start imposing weight limits or weighing people but I DO think that consistently low placings would go a long way to making people rethink things.

If a judge sees knees over the front of the saddle, bums practically on the loins or someone so overweight their bum is munching on the saddle then they should place down the line simply give a diplomatic 'I'm sorry the overall picture isn't quite right' and leave it at that

In showing really the only way to make changes is by stopping rewarding the worst offenders who in many cases should know better. You only have to look at the HOYS qualifiers that one show lost who just happened to take a big stand to see that some parts of the showing world simply don't want to rock the boat - same story with pony weight it wont change as long as its rewarded

 

[Widgeon]

I was at camp at the weekend and they had the weigh bridge for the horses . I weighed Tali and then asked if I could come back with my hat and tack so I could find out how much she was carrying. They said absolutely but was shocked I’d want to. I’m delighted I’m at 14.6% so just under the 15% mark but no one else wanted to find out their percentage. Not even the thin people. Maybe me doing it might make people have a think about it, you never know. Being close to the 15% mark made me get in the gym yesterday though when I was shattered and would’ve happily sat on the sofa.

Ooh what a good idea - I will have to do this one day when my OH is out or he'll think I'm insane, teetering on the scales with my hat on clutching my saddle....

 

[Goldenstar]

With regards to showing I think its going to get very complicated to start imposing weight limits or weighing people but I DO think that consistently low placings would go a long way to making people rethink things.

If a judge sees knees over the front of the saddle, bums practically on the loins or someone so overweight their bum is munching on the saddle then they should place down the line simply give a diplomatic 'I'm sorry the overall picture isn't quite right' and leave it at that

In showing really the only way to make changes is by stopping rewarding the worst offenders who in many cases should know better. You only have to look at the HOYS qualifiers that one show lost who just happened to take a big stand to see that some parts of the showing world simply don't want to rock the boat - same story with pony weight it wont change as long as its rewarded

This makes perfect sense part of showing is the overall picture so punish people spilling over saddles as it marrs the picture however could this could be easily be seen as fat shaming and the judge could end up being vilified .
Being fat is now so normal it’s a mine field no one wants to attack someone’s self esteem and make people miserable but we are in a situation where it’s not ok to say to the young you are damaging your health and facing a miserable middle age because the body only jollies along suffering quietly for so long before the you pay the price .

 

[ester]

How does showing scoring break down? Is there an overall impression mark/equivalent?

 

[Roxylola]

It's a difficult one with regard to fat shaming. I know that friends of mine who are over weight go to the doctors for anything and their weight is always brought up - literally an ear infection and doctor will mention them being over weight. It's a reality they live with every single day. They don't need anyone to tell them.
Another difficulty is that often the people saying that x or y is too big for their horse or that there should be a limit to what any horse is expected to carry are often not overweight at all. Its one reason I try and stay out of this type of discussion, there is so much more to it than the number a person shows on a scale.

 

[RachelFerd]

There's another angle to this -- which goes beyond whether or not you are an appropriate weight for your horse - which is, should you be competing if you are the correct weight but not suitably fit? You could be overweight and unfit but riding an appropriately large horse for the weight - but is it *still* not the rider's responsibility to be in a state of good fitness in order to be considering asking their horse to do something athletic?

In horseracing jockeys have to pass a fitness test.

I've always wondered whether it would be appropriate to have a similar basic fitness test for eventing, given the risks of riding at speed over solid obstacles.

 

[Birker2020]

It's a difficult one with regard to fat shaming. I know that friends of mine who are over weight go to the doctors for anything and their weight is always brought up - literally an ear infection and doctor will mention them being over weight. It's a reality they live with every single day. They don't need anyone to tell them.
Another difficulty is that often the people saying that x or y is too big for their horse or that there should be a limit to what any horse is expected to carry are often not overweight at all. Its one reason I try and stay out of this type of discussion, there is so much more to it than the number a person shows on a scale.

Doctors mention it I'm guessing because obesity is the biggest killer in this country (that and obesity related illnesses/diseases). This is why its cheaper for the NHS to fund bariatric surgery than it is to deal with people with weight related health issues.

I agree 100% with you saying that there is a lot more involved than numbers on a scale.

 

[Barton Bounty]

Doctors mention it I'm guessing because obesity is the biggest killer in this country (that and obesity related illnesses/diseases). This is why its cheaper for the NHS to fund bariatric surgery than it is to deal with people with weight related health issues.

I agree 100% with you saying that there is a lot more involved than numbers on a scale.

Obesity is? Cause I have lost 5 family members to cancer this year ? all of which were skinny as… ill stay positively plump ?

 

[Birker2020]

Obesity is? Cause I have lost 5 family members to cancer this year ? all of which were skinny as… ill stay positively plump ?

Yep 30,000 a year. I tackled smoking and gave that up. Food has always been beyond my grasp....
sorry to hear about your family

 

[SEL]

Obesity is? Cause I have lost 5 family members to cancer this year ? all of which were skinny as… ill stay positively plump ?

5 is a tough year :-(

Lots of side effects of obesity - type 2 diabetes being the big one with its massive knock on effects on the body. I've sat in the hospital with the diabetic amputees and its incredibly sad. The reasons behind weight gain are complex and our processed food industry doesn't help.

 

[Roxylola]

I know that's why they bring it up, but I think like a lot (most) obese people my friends are well aware of that and having it pointed out in relation to an ear infection seems a bit unnecessary, irrelevant - and imo a good way to make people defensive.
Again while I understand why fitness tests might be a good idea as someone who would have no issue passing I'm not sure I am qualified to comment