Stuck, mis sold horse

[Michen]

That’s fair, I am potentially jumping to a conclusion but I feel it’s a likely one with the facts presented by the OP.

Someone else’s interpretation may be different and I may well be wrong.

I just find it hard to believe that good horses without issues end up in a dealers yard and being sold on in poor condition, but maybe I’m cynical. Obviously there’s always exceptions but I don’t feel a dealer with a good reputation would want to transact in this way.

 

[fredflop]

That’s fair, I am potentially jumping to a conclusion but I feel it’s a likely one with the facts presented by the OP.

Someone else’s interpretation may be different and I may well be wrong.

I just find it hard to believe that good horses without issues end up in a dealers yard and being sold on in poor condition, but maybe I’m cynical. Obviously there’s always exceptions but I don’t feel a dealer with a good reputation would want to transact in this way.

I’ve previously picked up what had been a very expensive horse cheap from a dealer as the previous owner was way out of their depth with the horse.

 

[Michen]

I’ve previously picked up what had been a very expensive horse cheap from a dealer as the previous owner was way out of their depth with the horse.

I’m not saying it doesn’t happen. Just that combining it with a horse that started showing issues when it got home makes me rather suspicious.

I still don’t think any decent dealer with a reputation to protect would sell a horse in poor condition, even if it was under valued.

 

[millikins]

That’s fair, I am potentially jumping to a conclusion but I feel it’s a likely one with the facts presented by the OP.

Someone else’s interpretation may be different and I may well be wrong.

I just find it hard to believe that good horses without issues end up in a dealers yard and being sold on in poor condition, but maybe I’m cynical. Obviously there’s always exceptions but I don’t feel a dealer with a good reputation would want to transact in this way.

I know you had a dreadful experience but good horses can and do end up in dealers yards, they don't need a bad owner, just the wrong owner to be labelled as difficult. I have just bought a beautiful connemara mare from a dealer, she's young and sensitive and was bought unseen for a novice child. She's panicked, dumped the "instructor" and became very anxious and upset but there's nothing wrong that a bit of time and consistency won't sort.

 

[Dynamo]

Am I the only person who has picked up on this in the original post?
"He’s head shy and sensitive to brush, shoots to the back of the stable when you enter, tried to kick me when I tried to brush his more sensitive side."

'sensitive to brush', has a 'more sensitive side', 'not well fed previously'. A horse that tries to kick when you go to brush him in a particular place is in pain. This is all screaming 'ulcers' to me. I know, I know... I am normally the first person to raise any eyebrow when everyone jumps to 'ulcers' as the reason for all behavioural issues, but I really think it's a strong possibility here. OP, for the sake of the horse, and yourself, and all concerned, given that he's insured, I feel compelled to urge you to have a Succeed ulcer test done on the horse. It's completely non-invasive and is a fraction of the cost of scoping (about £60 + call-out). Not all vets do it, so find one that does. Look it up online.

Yes, as pointed out above, it still leaves you with an unsuitable horse, but potentially one that is fixable, and that could have some sort of useful life and be more settled, if not with you then elsewhere.

 

[Madmum]

I feel like I am stuck in a nightmare. I bought a horse end of December. I have been saving for this horse for 4 years after losing my horse of a lifetime after 19 years.
I enquired about a horse and stated I want an easy horse that’s not stressy ,or spooky out hacking, can jump me around at riding club level. I want something good to catch and shoe. I don’t want anything that bolts, naps rears or is very hard to stop. I would like to take him out and about so he needs to be good to load. I can put up with him moving off when he’s mounted as long as he’s not cold backed.The dealer stated that he ticked all boxes (I have WhatsApp messages)
She kept saying to me he will need time to settle, fair enough I am experience horse owner and would give him time to settle. Mount turned out to be a lot worse than was stated, I got a horse whisper in... and have really tried to be patient, had to get on with someone stood in front and slowly i would walk around him from the other side trying to desensitise him then slowly creep up, at first he would panic and shoot off, if I even could get him next to the block. This is improve over time. He was stabled at night at our livery yard and became increasingly bad to catch, had to keep a head collar on... he was extremely sensitive and stressy, I had lessons every week and just had to work on keeping him calm. Had him shod he was very stressy and next few time blacksmith had to take him in the stable. He’s head shy and sensitive to brush, shoots to the back of the stable when you enter, tried to kick me when I tried to brush his more sensitive side. Can’t hack him alone, he isn’t bad out hacking but takes a lot from the horses he is with. Then on lesson he was very very stressy and bolted. Full gallop around the arena 6 laps I tried to stop him or head him up a hedge didn’t work and no choice but to bail and he flung me into the hedge. So I contacted a professional to take him. He was there 2 days and did the same thing to her, she sent him back...
So I have contact the dealer, was good at first call, apologies it happened asked to take time to mull it over. I called her after the weekend and she said that isn’t the horse she sold, he was a gem...
he hasn’t been since I got him but I was trying my best, but bolting is not something I am prepared to work on, he is a dangerous horse.
She is trying to say she can take him back to sell him on my behalf, I refused this. Now she says she doesn’t have the money and can pay in dribs abs drabs when she sell a horse in her yard.
what do I do? Or has anyone been in this situation, I am having to pay livery for a horse I feel was missold. The dealer isn’t close either and travel cost would be £300, who should pay this? I have spent a lot of money on him so far anyway...
I am heartbroken, I worked so hard to save for a horse and now I have a horse I can’t ride and money leaking out of my pockets

Aww I’m sorry, I would be disheartened too but they are liable for all costs. You really need to get some legal advice and screenshot all the messages so you don’t lose them. Good luck x

 

[Gingerwitch]

no I didn’t have him vetted, I did try him and he was no problem at all, I made sure I could do his girth up, handled him in the stable, got on in a open field, jumped him cross country in their field and no problems, he also loaded fine that time. He is a beautiful horse who has done high level showing in the past, but at the dealer he was very poor, they didn’t give him hard feed and he was turned out, he had rain scolds. I have fed him balancer and he is in at night. But I try and keep him out as long as possible and don’t use the livery yard turn out now to try and keep him out longer, I go up to bring him in about 7:30-8pm

So is he being left out when all his field friends are in? As this could be triggering a stress issue.

 

[ownedbyaconnie]

I would normally say send back but I think it’s past that point now. I personally couldn’t send back I would be too attached and worried for the horses future, but appreciate not everyone is as sentimental (stupid?) as me and/or circumstances (money/family/etc) don’t allow it.

 

[Michen]

I know you had a dreadful experience but good horses can and do end up in dealers yards, they don't need a bad owner, just the wrong owner to be labelled as difficult. I have just bought a beautiful connemara mare from a dealer, she's young and sensitive and was bought unseen for a novice child. She's panicked, dumped the "instructor" and became very anxious and upset but there's nothing wrong that a bit of time and consistency won't sort.

Yes I understand that good horses can end up
In dealers yards, of course they can. I’m not saying they can’t. Otherwise no one would ever buy from a desler! But good dealers don’t sell good horses from their yards in poor condition. The two things together in my mind is suspicious.

When you put that, and this situation together, it seems logical (to me) to assume there may be something fishy about the sale

Maybe I should rephrase. Good horses that end up in a dealers yard sold by GOOD dealers would be sold in decent condition.

 

[ycbm]

Yes he is insured

Then I'm puzzled why you are delaying getting a veterinary workup and x rays done on this horse.

County standard working hunter to dangerous bolting nutter. His story is screaming pain.
.

 

[meleeka]

Then I'm puzzled why you are delaying getting a veterinary workup and x rays done on this horse.

County standard working hunter to dangerous bolting nutter. His story is screaming pain.
.

presumably if OP is going to take legal action they’d need evidence anyway, which a work up would provide.

 

[Michen]

Because maybe whatever is found, op is unlikely to ever want to ride the horse again?

I wouldn’t get on any horse whose reaction to pain was to bolt (a true bolt) You’d never know if something else would go wrong and it would all kick off again.

 

[ycbm]

Because maybe whatever is found, op is unlikely to ever want to ride the horse again?

I wouldn’t get on any horse whose reaction to pain was to bolt (a true bolt) You’d never know if something else would go wrong and it would all kick off again.

There is a duty of care legally to get treatment for a horse which needs it and it's clear that this horse needs it.
.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Basically, these would be my 3 options:

Give the horse back to the dealer. Do this by filing claim/small claims court if the dealer is uncooperative.

Investigate. Then you know what is wrong and you can treat and see if the horse is better/different. Or find out what's wrong and proceed with option 1.

Do nothing. No one benefits from this aside from the dealer.


I would not choose option 3.

ETA: I'm not sure how much of a "case" you need here if you're within the 6 months. I thought the threshold was pretty low, but not exactly my area of expertise.

 

[Michen]

There is a duty of care legally to get treatment for a horse which needs it and it's clear that this horse needs it.
.

If the horse is bunged out in a field, and perfectly happy as long as not being ridden etc, I wouldn’t as the op feel obliged to get the vet for a ridden issue if I was intending to not ride the horse again.

And I say that as someone who does get the vet and the drop of a hat!

 

[TPO]

None of this makes sense.

Horse bought 4 months ago but only recently contacted dealer. No vetting was done pre purchase and no vet had been out to see a horse displaying fairly obvious and typical pain symptoms & behaviours.

Money was spent on a "horse whisperer" but not a vet. "Back done" in one physio visit?

Name drops Sopie Seymour to imply her involvement but in reality the only connection there is that she has said that she next has space to take a horse in June. From the sounds of it she has never clapped eyes on the horse in the fresh.

Getting taken off with and run away with can be terrifying but there is a difference between that and bolting. Bolting is thrown about regularly when that isn't the case.

I dont think OP is as experienced as implied. No shame in that but its shown as crucial steps have been missed. Horse should have been vetted but it's too late now.

A vet should have been called when pain behaviours were shown. As someone else has already said he is displaying typical signs of ulcers but there could be more going on. That you have posted about his more sensitive side and yet apparently the physio didnt notice rings alarm bells.

Vet, teeth, physio, saddle fitter and farrier all have to work together, it takes a village, ideally along with your instructor.

If he was bought in such a poor condition hopefully that has improved in the previous 4 months. In turn that means that as his shape changes he will need very regular saddle checks and regular body work of some time as he develops muscles that wont have been used in a considerable amount of time.

If you took it to court currently I dont think you have a leg to stand on. You bought the horse because he behaved so well when you tried him and there is no evidence (e.g. tested blood samples) to prove any wrong doing by the dealer.

You have owned a previously successful horse for four months and *now* you raise issues with the dealer. Given that the horse was successful in the past and you were accepting of him at the dealer the problems appear to only have arisen after time with you.

I'm not saying that is the case but that is how it looks objectively.

Do you have someone experienced who can help you out with advice face to face? In the nicest possible way the surface has barely been scratched in regards to this horse and this appears to be due to a lack of experience.

My first call would be thr vet for a work up. Even if you are to pursue this through the courts you will need this evidence as proof of something being wrong (at Point of Sale) because just now it is your word against theirs.

If hes insured you'll only have to pay the excess.

Once you have results of vet work up then formulate a plan whether that be taking dealer to court for a refund or working towards treating and curing horse.

If, for example, ulcers were found I'd personally treat them and do groundwork with the horse. Groundwork along with bodywork of some description and as his shape will change saddle fitter. Then send him to Sophie in June and either sell on a schooled horse that she has assessed or see how you feel about riding again.

It's hard to offer real advice as everyone tells things from their POV naturally but clearly there have been a lot of steps missed in between deciding to purchase a horse and now. I'd look to the vet and a properly experienced person who can see horse face to face and offer an opinion based on that reality

 

[Trouper]

TPO - an excellent post. You have comprehensively cut through all the ping-ponging of owner's rights, dealer's actions, potential court cases etc to focus on the needs of the horse. Somewhere in his little world he is not a happy horse and only the owner can set in hand the actions to help him.

 

[Michen]

I read it as things started to go wrong very soon after purchase and op has been bumbling along with it all, and it’s finally reached a head.

We don’t know if it’s a true bolt or a running away from. But assuming op is correct in what she’s saying, If it’s a true bolt I certainly stand by what I say that this is not a horse I’d have any interest in rehabbing, whatever was found.

 

[Upthecreek]

If the horse is bunged out in a field, and perfectly happy as long as not being ridden etc, I wouldn’t as the op feel obliged to get the vet for a ridden issue if I was intending to not ride the horse again.

And I say that as someone who does get the vet and the drop of a hat!

But she didn’t have a pre-purchase vetting, which may well have saved all this grief and the horse is insured for vets fees. I cannot think of a good reason why not to get the vet involved to find out what she is dealing with when she only has to pay the insurance excess. She has spent money on all sorts of other checks and is considering sending the horse to a behaviourist, which would cost way more than the excess. I would not think a behaviourist would work with a horse without pain being ruled out by a vet first.

If the outcome of the vet workup was a physical problem the OP can then make an informed decision on how to move forward. She has owned the horse for four months not a couple of weeks and in all good conscience she should do right by the horse rather than send it back to an uncertain future.

 

[Michen]

But she didn’t have a pre-purchase vetting, which may well have saved all this grief and the horse is insured for vets fees. I cannot think of a good reason why not to get the vet involved to find out what she is dealing with when she only has to pay the insurance excess. She has spent money on all sorts of other checks and is considering sending the horse to a behaviourist, which would cost way more than the excess. I would not think a behaviourist would work with a horse without pain being ruled out by a vet first.

If the outcome of the vet workup was a physical problem the OP can then make an informed decision on how to move forward. She has owned the horse for four months not a couple of weeks and in all good conscience she should do right by the horse rather than send it back to an uncertain future.

I don't think she would necessarily be insured either tbh. If the insurance get a whiff of there potentially being a problem immediately with the horse, likely to be pre existing, her insurance will be voided.

When I rang my insurers to tell them re a misold horse I'd bought, they immediately voided my insurance. But they were kind enough to pay back the installments I'd already made (SEIB).

 

[DabDab]

I also read it as horse has been problematic from day one but they have just bumbled along with random bits of advice from here and there.....easily done during lockdown if you are not the most switched on, proactive sort.

I'm usually inclined to be on the side of the dealer when I read these posts, particularly when a buyer has been as hapless as this one seems to have been. However, some of the details here of this horse scream dodgy dealer do up to me.

But yes, next step needs to be the vet, for diagnostic purposes. Given the time that has passed since purchase, I can't see that the OP has any other option.

 

[meleeka]

We don’t know if it’s a true bolt or a running away from. But assuming op is correct in what she’s saying, If it’s a true bolt I certainly stand by what I say that this is not a horse I’d have any interest in rehabbing, whatever was found.

What would you do? The dealer has offered to take the horse to sell, which isn’t acceptable to OP, so presumably they’d have to pursue it through the courts, which could take longer than a sale. The OP has taken SIXTEEN weeks to contact the dealer and report the horse as mis-sold and if it’s that bad I wonder why it took that long? That’s plenty of time for an unsettled horse to develop ulcers or chronic pain somewhere. It could be as simple as a badly fitting saddle or a reaction to feed or environment.

 

[Michen]

What would you do? The dealer has offered to take the horse to sell, which isn’t acceptable to OP, so presumably they’d have to pursue it through the courts, which could take longer than a sale. The OP has taken sixteen weeks to contact the dealer and report the horse as mis-sold and if it’s that bad I wonder why it took that long? That’s plenty of time for an unsettled horse to develop ulcers or chronic pain somewhere. It could be as simple as a badly fitting saddle or a reaction to feed or environment.

I'm repeating myself as I've said what I would do. I'd put it on grass livery somewhere and sue the dealer.

I am, as I said, reading this as the op had problems very quickly and did contact the dealer but got brushed off and has tried to continue with the horse over the last few months.

Maybe OP will come and confirm the timelines.

And I completely agree, if the behaviour started after 4 months my response would be completely different!

 

[meleeka]

Thank you, I haven’t raised anything with the dealer as I was trying to just knuckle down and get on with it, as I only thought I had 30 days, I have spoken to a solicitor and you have 6 months after a sale.

I am, as I said, reading this as the op had problems very quickly and did contact the dealer but got brushed off and has tried to continue with the horse over the last few months.

OP has stated they didn’t contact the dealer.

 

[Michen]

OP has stated they didn’t contact the dealer.

I think op needs to clarify, as when she wrote this "She kept saying to me he will need time to settle, fair enough I am experience horse owner and would give him time to settle. " that sounds to me like she raised problems very early on.

Maybe she meant hadn't raised anything "officially" with dealer aka formally rejected the horse?

I don't know how to quote sections from her post so excuse the sloppy copy and paste

 

[Lois Lame]

I read it as things started to go wrong very soon after purchase and op has been bumbling along with it all, and it’s finally reached a head.

That's how I read it. Also, the dealer harped on about the horse needing time to settle in. I can't help but feel that this was just another little trick of the dealer's.

 

[ycbm]

I don't know how to quote sections from her post so excuse the sloppy copy and paste

https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/by-popular-request-how-to-use-quotes.801889/

 

[Rowreach]

I read it as things started to go wrong very soon after purchase and op has been bumbling along with it all, and it’s finally reached a head.

We don’t know if it’s a true bolt or a running away from. But assuming op is correct in what she’s saying, If it’s a true bolt I certainly stand by what I say that this is not a horse I’d have any interest in rehabbing, whatever was found.

But presumably you would want to do the right thing by the poor horse? Chucking a problem in a field doesn't solve the problem or indeed deal with the pain issues this horse certainly has

 

[Michen]

But presumably you would want to do the right thing by the poor horse? Chucking a problem in a field doesn't solve the problem or indeed deal with the pain issues this horse certainly has

It does if the horses discomfort is isolated to being ridden, or other ridden associated management. If the horse is perfectly happy in a retirement field whilst the owner pursues through the courts I don't see a problem with that.

What's the owner meant to do if say, KS is found? Operate and rehab the horse? It's unlikely that if anything is found it can simply be "fixed" if this horse is a true bolter.

 

[rabatsa]

Points to consider.

Poor condition is subjective especially if people are used to seeing fat horses.

A rib or two visible or a walking skeleton which needs several months to gain condition to a point where doing any ridden work may be considered.

Is the poor condition down to lack of work and just no muscle.

How long had the dealer had the horse? If only a week or two then to get to the skeleton stage the horse must have been very poor before the dealer took it on.

To me a true bolter does not stop in an arena and do tight corners, however a runaway does.