Stuck, mis sold horse

[Rowreach]

Seriously, you can't blame any dealer for reminding a customer (particularly one clearly inexperienced with riding lots of different horses) that they all take time to settle in a new place with new people? This is why so many new owners have problems, they think it's like buying a sofa, bringing it home and sitting on it.

 

[stormox]

I’ve previously picked up what had been a very expensive horse cheap from a dealer as the previous owner was way out of their depth with the horse.

I too got one for 400 at a sale, thought it was an ex racer, when I got passport he was a warmblood and had been sold to seller by breeder for 2500 2 months previously. Seller said he was dangerous. He was'nt. When I contacted breeder she was seriously shocked.
But back to OPs horse, he 'bolted' while jumping. So OP was confident enough with him until then to jump him.

 

[Rowreach]

Ok so we all know there are dodgy dealers and mis-sold horses out there, but at what point does the new owner of a horse accept that actually this horse is now theirs, and their responsibility to care for and provide veterinary and other support professionals (proper ones, not whisperers), rather than passing the buck to someone else?

I'm quite shocked tbh. Once an animal is mine, it's mine to take responsibility for at that time. That's horse ownership, that's what you take on. A mis-sold car, you can park it in the driveway while you argue the toss. A horse, you shouldn't.

 

[DabDab]

Ok so we all know there are dodgy dealers and mis-sold horses out there, but at what point does the new owner of a horse accept that actually this horse is now theirs, and their responsibility to care for and provide veterinary and other support professionals (proper ones, not whisperers), rather than passing the buck to someone else?

I'm quite shocked tbh. Once an animal is mine, it's mine to take responsibility for at that time. That's horse ownership, that's what you take on. A mis-sold car, you can park it in the driveway while you argue the toss. A horse, you shouldn't.

Well legally at 6 months.

Morally it depends on your outlook and the circumstances, which none of us truly know here.

When I take any animal on it becomes my responsibility too, but I buy cheapy youngsters direct from the breeder, so a bit different to buying an experienced horse from someone who's profession it is to sell decent horses into a suitable home.

Why a buyer would save for 4 years to buy a horse but then fail to get a vetting done is beyond me, but then why a decent dealer would allow a buyer so insistent on buying a quiet horse to buy it without a vetting is also beyond me. Any why both buyer and seller seem keen to move the horse onto somebody else now still without a vet looking at it is also baffling

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Ok so we all know there are dodgy dealers and mis-sold horses out there, but at what point does the new owner of a horse accept that actually this horse is now theirs, and their responsibility to care for and provide veterinary and other support professionals (proper ones, not whisperers), rather than passing the buck to someone else?

I'm quite shocked tbh. Once an animal is mine, it's mine to take responsibility for at that time. That's horse ownership, that's what you take on. A mis-sold car, you can park it in the driveway while you argue the toss. A horse, you shouldn't.

Morally, I agree with this and I, personally, would keep the horse and sort it out BUT legally OP had 6 months in which to return the horse.
The red flag for me, is that the dealer has offered to sell the horse for the OP. Any decent dealer would have enough money available to refund OP, take the horse back, check everything out and sell it on again, in order to protect their own reputation. The sort of shenanigans proposed is the mark of a dodgy dealer in my book.

 

[criso]

The problem with keeping the horse in this situation and trying to sort out the problems is that it lets the dodgy dealers carry on. They have their profit and no consequences for what they have done.

It's difficult because the poor horse may end up being misold again but keeping it will help the dealer continue and more horses and buyers will suffer.

 

[Asha]

Morally, I agree with this and I, personally, would keep the horse and sort it out BUT legally OP had 6 months in which to return the horse.
The red flag for me, is that the dealer has offered to sell the horse for the OP. Any decent dealer would have enough money available to refund OP, take the horse back, check everything out and sell it on again, in order to protect their own reputation. The sort of shenanigans proposed is the mark of a dodgy dealer in my book.

i agree with you PAS in that the dealer should have the funds to refund if found that they mis sold / incorrectly matched them up ..its the right thing to do. But the OP has had the horse 6 months.. non of us know whats happened within that 6 months, the OP could well have made some poor decisions and made a good horse .. not so good. The horse may need all the issues ironing out which will cost time and money. I fully understand why a dealer would only take it back on a sales livery basis now.

FWIW the horse sounds in pain to me, and rather than bother with horsewhispers etc etc id be at the vets. First stop back xrays. The horse bolted /ran after being circled , thats sounds like back issues to me. If its been going on for a while, then that would /could case ulcers.
If thats the case, then the OP would at least have evidence to present to the dealer.

 

[The Jokers Girl]

I think TPO has written the most articulate, sensible and thoughtful response out of the 100 or so replies but I am so saddened but this thread. It is obvious who the true animal/horse lovers on her are and whom the ones who just see them as disposable machines are.

The OP seems quite inexperienced in buying a poor horse with no vetting and then "bumbling" along for 4 months raising no complaint to the dealer and trying all "experts" except the one this horse needs which is a vet. The horse isinsured so only excess to cover. Most vets I have used will tweak their report to ensure a payout but to be honest even if they don't when you buy an animal you become responsible for everything about it, and that includes its well being and keeping it pain free, fed and sheltered. Tough poo of that means you end up having to cover vet bills. People should think more about this before purchasing, and why I am glad horse prices are through the roof, as it stops people buying cheap and seeing no value in them so not providing proper care.
Bunging them in a field when this horse is screaming out for someone to help it with its issues is beyond the pale.

 

[Michen]

I think TPO has written the most articulate, sensible and thoughtful response out of the 100 or so replies but I am so saddened but this thread. It is obvious who the true animal/horse lovers on her are and whom the ones who just see them as disposable machines are.

The OP seems quite inexperienced in buying a poor horse with no vetting and then "bumbling" along for 4 months raising no complaint to the dealer and trying all "experts" except the one this horse needs which is a vet. The horse isinsured so only excess to cover. Most vets I have used will tweak their report to ensure a payout but to be honest even if they don't when you buy an animal you become responsible for everything about it, and that includes its well being and keeping it pain free, fed and sheltered. Tough poo of that means you end up having to cover vet bills. People should think more about this before purchasing, and why I am glad horse prices are through the roof, as it stops people buying cheap and seeing no value in them so not providing proper care.
Bunging them in a field when this horse is screaming out for someone to help it with its issues is beyond the pale.

I really don’t see the issue in ceasing doing the activities that are causing the horse to behave badly (or be in discomfort) in order to put the horse in an environment/situation it’s comfortable in whilst you pursue through the courts.

It’s highly unlikely a true cause would be found from a simple vet visit, there may have to be a huge amount of diagnostics in order to find the root cause. Then a full rehab, with no guarantee that what’s been found is even causing the behaviour. If you don’t intend to keep the horse as a riding horse for yourself and want to return it (and if you are legally able to do so) why would you open the can of worms?

I appreciate the above would be the nicest thing to do for the horse but ultimately as someone else mentioned dealers will continue to get away with miselling horses (if that’s what’s happened here) if every owner then goes through the above instead of holding them accountable.

I’ll tell me two nags how disposable they are to me though, in that case ?

 

[Upthecreek]

I don't think she would necessarily be insured either tbh. If the insurance get a whiff of there potentially being a problem immediately with the horse, likely to be pre existing, her insurance will be voided.

When I rang my insurers to tell them re a misold horse I'd bought, they immediately voided my insurance. But they were kind enough to pay back the installments I'd already made (SEIB).

Usually insurers ask for a copy of the pre-purchase vetting so she probably doesn’t have cover for vet fees.

 

[Bellaboo18]

Usually insurers ask for a copy of the pre-purchase vetting so she probably doesn’t have cover for vet fees.

You can insure a horse (upto a certain value) for vet fees without a pre-purchase vetting.

 

[Michen]

Usually insurers ask for a copy of the pre-purchase vetting so she probably doesn’t have cover for vet fees.

Sorry but you are completely incorrect. Many insurers insure without a vetting, usually a 5k limit.

 

[Bellaboo18]

The problem with keeping the horse in this situation and trying to sort out the problems is that it lets the dodgy dealers carry on. They have their profit and no consequences for what they have done.

It's difficult because the poor horse may end up being misold again but keeping it will help the dealer continue and more horses and buyers will suffer.

Although I agree with this in principle, I think OP should have sent the horse back along time ago. 4 months is a long time. Was the horse 'bolting' in week 1?

 

[criso]

You can insure a horse (upto a certain value) for vet fees without a pre-purchase vetting.

Yes but if the issues started shortly after purchase then they may well try and argue pre existing condition and without a vetting it's much more difficult.

 

[Rowreach]

The problem with keeping the horse in this situation and trying to sort out the problems is that it lets the dodgy dealers carry on. They have their profit and no consequences for what they have done.

It's difficult because the poor horse may end up being misold again but keeping it will help the dealer continue and more horses and buyers will suffer.

But if you want guarantees, don’t buy a horse full stop ?

If you’re buying from a dealer, do your research, do a proper viewing/trying and get it vetted by an independent vet.

That way it puts the onus back on the dealer to be as straight as possible (notwithstanding these are live animals, not cars).

I know lots of us on here buy unseen, buy cheap, buy issues, but generally we know what we’re doing and are prepared to accept and deal with the consequences.

No horse wants to be passed around without it’s best interests being at the heart of “ownership” ?

 

[The Jokers Girl]

I really don’t see the issue in ceasing doing the activities that are causing the horse to behave badly (or be in discomfort) in order to put the horse in an environment/situation it’s comfortable in whilst you pursue through the courts.

It’s highly unlikely a true cause would be found from a simple vet visit, there may have to be a huge amount of diagnostics in order to find the root cause. Then a full rehab, with no guarantee that what’s been found is even causing the behaviour. If you don’t intend to keep the horse as a riding horse for yourself and want to return it (and if you are legally able to do so) why would you open the can of worms?

I appreciate the above would be the nicest thing to do for the horse but ultimately as someone else mentioned dealers will continue to get away with miselling horses (if that’s what’s happened here) if every owner then goes through the above instead of holding them accountable.

I’ll tell me two nags how disposable they are to me though, in that case ?

You can use all the sarcasm and silly emojis you like but it doesn't change the fact the OP is responsible for this poor animal. A full lameness workup including nerve blocks costs about £500 to £600. Horse on my yard has just had this and KS was found.
If the horse has kissing spine, which I think it was you that has referenced, it will be in constant pain ridden or not. If it has ulcers, mentioned by another poster, it will be in constant pain ridden or not, hock/stiffle arthritis, pain, ridden or not.
KS does not go away just because you bung it on grass livery it progresses and gets worse as do the other conditions it could be. This horse needs veterinary investigations, or pts if OP would rather forego that and use a sodding horse whisperer.

 

[Upthecreek]

Sorry but you are completely incorrect. Many insurers insure without a vetting, usually a 5k limit.

Oh okay. The insurers I have used have all asked for the vetting. Thanks for the correction.

 

[The Jokers Girl]

Yes but if the issues started shortly after purchase then they may well try and argue pre existing condition and without a vetting it's much more difficult.

Normally they exclude anything within 14days of taking out the policy but the fact that OP hasn't had a vet to it this could easily be manipulated to ensure a payout and get the horse the treatment, investigations it so desperately needs

 

[Bellaboo18]

I was circling him on front of a jump, he thought we were jumping it, I was trying to settle him to have a better approach. And he went, it was like a blind panic

I think this post is so important. OP was jumping this horse so at this point obviously felt reasonably confident with him.

 

[criso]

Although I agree with this in principle, I think OP should have sent the horse back along time ago. 4 months is a long time. Was the horse 'bolting' in week 1?

It sounds from the original post that there were issues from the start, but we'd need a detailed timeline of physical and behavioural symptoms with actions taken and dates to get the full picture.

But yes it sounds like the OP wasn't tough enough and tried to sort things out themselves rather than sending it straight back. There's a balance between giving a horse time to settle in and in this case needing condition and realising there is something more serious going on either physically and behaviourally.

There was a horse that bolted on a yard I was on, it would go for weeks or months without doing it and then would out of the blue. Every check was done and no cause ever found.

 

[Dexter]

Normally they exclude anything within 14days of taking out the policy but the fact that OP hasn't had a vet to it this could easily be manipulated to ensure a payout and get the horse the treatment, investigations it so desperately needs

thats insurance fraud

 

[The Jokers Girl]

thats insurance fraud

Oh im sure it is to a certain degree, and vets tweaking their reports is too but it's no where near as bad as animal neglect.

 

[criso]

Normally they exclude anything within 14days of taking out the policy but the fact that OP hasn't had a vet to it this could easily be manipulated to ensure a payout and get the horse the treatment, investigations it so desperately needs

There is always small print that excludes pre existing conditions. I'm not sure the OP hasn't had a vet out, they haven't done a full physical workup, but they should have needed their vets ok for the physio. So there will be a trail showing there have been issues from the start. The insurers may argue that anything found is pre existing and exclude it.

 

[Michen]

You can use all the sarcasm and silly emojis you like but it doesn't change the fact the OP is responsible for this poor animal. A full lameness workup including nerve blocks costs about £500 to £600. Horse on my yard has just had this and KS was found.
If the horse has kissing spine, which I think it was you that has referenced, it will be in constant pain ridden or not. If it has ulcers, mentioned by another poster, it will be in constant pain ridden or not, hock/stiffle arthritis, pain, ridden or not.
KS does not go away just because you bung it on grass livery it progresses and gets worse as do the other conditions it could be. This horse needs veterinary investigations, or pts if OP would rather forego that and use a sodding horse whisperer.

It's not really sarcasm or silly when it's fairly obvious to anyone who knows me, my horses either from on here or in real life that I do not in any way view my animals as disposable machines. A silly, blanket statement by you IMO.

£500-£600 is a very wild estimate, to truly diagnose something unless there's an easy to spot lameness would likely need a ridden assessment (whose going to do that on a horse that bolts?) to find a change in behaviour, potentially a bone scan etc, who knows.

It would be great if the op does get a vet check to at least verify the horse is considered happy enough so long as it's not ridden (ie nothing glaringly obvious), but I really don't think it's unreasonable for the op to pursue legally and simply put the horse in a situation where it isn't being asked to do the things that causes pain indicating behaviour.

That said, as someone has mentioned in a much more elequont way than I have, there is only half the story here and there are so many variables that who really knows.

 

[asmp]

In the first year of buying my horse about 14 years ago, he was found to have a broken tooth. Insurance refused to pay out saying he could have had it when I bought him. It was going to cost £1500 to take it out so the vet wrote to my insurance company and they agreed to pay half in the end.

 

[Winters100]

I'm repeating myself as I've said what I would do. I'd put it on grass livery somewhere and sue the dealer.

I am, as I said, reading this as the op had problems very quickly and did contact the dealer but got brushed off and has tried to continue with the horse over the last few months.

Maybe OP will come and confirm the timelines.

And I completely agree, if the behaviour started after 4 months my response would be completely different!

I suppose the problem is that to sue the dealer you would have to have the vet thoroughly investigate to prove that the horse had been mis-sold and had not just developed problems during the period of OPs ownership. As it stands today I would imagine that the case is fairly weak, because it is based upon an assumption that these problems existed at the time of purchase, and this is totally unknown. To me the only option would be full work up from vet, and unfortunately OP will need to be prepared to pay for this in the event that her insurance does not.

I am really sorry for OP being in this situation, but I cannot say that part of me does not look at this and ask why in the world anyone would buy without vetting unless they were prepared to encounter problems, and why call a horse whisperer rather than a vet to a horse who is clearly showing signs of pain.

 

[criso]

£500-£600 is a very wild estimate, to truly diagnose something unless there's an easy to spot lameness would likely need a ridden assessment (whose going to do that on a horse that bolts?) to find a change in behaviour, potentially a bone scan etc, who knows.

It was nearer £1000 to get my KS horse diagnosed and that was years ago and we were starting from back pain.

Another needed a bone scan to identify a shoulder issue and the scan on its own was over £1000 after the full work up. I had to get approval up front from the insurers for the bone scan. An MRI would be about the same.

 

[TPO]

Re insurance

I dont think its fraud because I'm assuming (!) that the first 14 days were fine. If they were not fine you would hope that someone would get a vet regardless.

Even "playing the game" if there was/is a cause for concern from day 15 we are now at week 16 and OP has *still* not involved the vet for a horse that they are sure has a pre existing condition.

There is absolutely no evidence that the horse actually has a pre existing condition other than OP citing that as the only reason why they have ended up in this situation. That might be true but there is zero veterinary proof *at this stage* of a pre existing condition.

OP *wants* there to be something pre existing wrong to make the dealer the bad guy and to get all of their money back.

There may or may not be anything wrong but even if there is I think OP would struggle to find a vet to give a timeline on most things and to guarantee it existed pre purchase.

Also OP has had physio so another assumption I've made is that the physio okayed the horse because OP has continued with riding the horse.

Obviously I dont know what physio report said, at what point physio was out and what OP has done with the horse since. Ditto for "horse whisperer".

Either they both said that the horse was ok and OP carried on or they said horse wasn't ok and OP continued without vet involvement. It doesnt really leave OP a leg to stand on IMO.

It's all pretty messy because of no pre purchase vetting, not contacting dealer/legal advice immediately upon discovery of "problem" and no vet involvement.

Contacting BHS gold legal helpline AND getting a vet seem like the only way forward to me.

ETA if horse was successful WH/Hunter horse in a previous life and fine when tried with dealer it does point towards OP being the issue. I am NOT saying that is the case but that is how it looks. Even more so since this horse with a supposedly pre existing condition and one that bolts was being used for jumping. It doesnt add up or make any sense and I'm sure, if it went that far, dealers lawyer would have a lot of material to use as defence.

Short version- get the vet to a horse in pain regardless of cost or insurance because of a little thing known as animal welfare.

 

[criso]

I suppose the problem is that to sue the dealer you would have to have the vet thoroughly investigate to prove that the horse had been mis-sold and had not just developed problems during the period of OPs ownership. As it stands today I would imagine that the case is fairly weak, because it is based upon an assumption that these problems existed at the time of purchase, and this is totally unknown. To me the only option would be full work up from vet, and unfortunately OP will need to be prepared to pay for this in the event that her insurance does not.

I am really sorry for OP being in this situation, but I cannot say that part of me does not look at this and ask why in the world anyone would buy without vetting unless they were prepared to encounter problems, and why call a horse whisperer rather than a vet to a horse who is clearly showing signs of pain.

I'm not sure you would under consumer law, just have to show it's not fit for purpose and it doesn't matter if the issues are physical or behaviourala

Agree about the vetting though.

 

[Michen]

I suppose the problem is that to sue the dealer you would have to have the vet thoroughly investigate to prove that the horse had been mis-sold and had not just developed problems during the period of OPs ownership. As it stands today I would imagine that the case is fairly weak, because it is based upon an assumption that these problems existed at the time of purchase, and this is totally unknown. To me the only option would be full work up from vet, and unfortunately OP will need to be prepared to pay for this in the event that her insurance does not.

I am really sorry for OP being in this situation, but I cannot say that part of me does not look at this and ask why in the world anyone would buy without vetting unless they were prepared to encounter problems, and why call a horse whisperer rather than a vet to a horse who is clearly showing signs of pain.

No you don't. It might help, but you don't need to have vet investigations.

But I agree, op's case may be weak if she hasn't got a record of her outlining the issues and them starting quickly after purchase.

And I agree with the horse whisperer bit, but sounds like op was desperate and I know first hand how distressing these situations can be.