The breeding and selling of banned breeds

[some show]

The way the pitbulls (and other bull breeds?) go for the 'bite, shake and do not let go' technique really makes them formidable if they attack, their jaws are so strong and combine that with their body mass. This list of dog bite force (PSI) is interesting. Turns out pitbulls are relatively low on the list, although still in the top 20 - the unnerving Kangal comes top - https://www.keatingfirmlaw.com/post/dog-bite-force-guide

 

[Cortez]

The way the pitbulls (and other bull breeds?) go for the 'bite, shake and do not let go' technique really makes them formidable if they attack, their jaws are so strong and combine that with their body mass. This list of dog bite force (PSI) is interesting. Turns out pitbulls are relatively low on the list, although still in the top 20 - the unnerving Kangal comes top - https://www.keatingfirmlaw.com/post/dog-bite-force-guide

It's not really about the force of the bite so much as the desire to do the biting though, isn't it? I can't imagine being savaged by a boxer or a British Bulldog, although both were originally bred for bull baiting the characteristics for doing that have been thoroughly selected out. The majority of that list are either guarding or fighting dogs, neither of which activities are required for a modern pet home. I have seen/met a Turkish Kangal; not a nice dog at all as a pet, but extremely effective as a flock guardian and wolf killer.

I believe that being on the Dangerous Dogs list should preclude breeding or ownership for anyone without a license to handle dogs professionally.

 

[some show]

It's not really about the force of the bite so much as the desire to do the biting though, isn't it?

I mean, it certainly doesn't help though! I am in total agreement with you that anyone wanting to own/breed something like a pitbull should be required to have a license/do some kind of training, anything that would put off the people just wanting a status symbol basically. Add some hoops for them to jump through. I live in Wales and unfortunately it's a bit of a hotbed of backyard breeders of 'fashionable' types (https://www.instagram.com/bulliesofsouthwales/?hl=en) - the form of some of those poor dogs, their shoulders, wrinkles etc, ugh.

 

[AmyMay]

I mean, it certainly doesn't help though! I am in total agreement with you that anyone wanting to own/breed something like a pitbull should be required to have a license/do some kind of training, anything that would put off the people just wanting a status symbol basically. Add some hoops for them to jump through. I live in Wales and unfortunately it's a bit of a hotbed of backyard breeders of 'fashionable' types (https://www.instagram.com/bulliesofsouthwales/?hl=en) - the form of some of those poor dogs, their shoulders, wrinkles etc, ugh.

Another breeder of micro bullies (from Cardiff) was recently prosecuted successfully by the RSPCA for mutilation of ears of his dogs, and banned from keeping dogs thankfully.

 

[some show]

They were, thankfully - good old Hope Rescue helped out with that one. They're doing a lot of great work for dog welfare at the moment (greyhound racing, cropped ears etc).

 

[bonny]

Today the inquest has opened into Jacks death, unsurvivable head and neck injuries and in the bbc report it’s stated that the dog had been used as a stud dog in his previous home. It’s not really about the one dog, there could be lots of his sons and daughters out there, maybe already breeding themselves.

 

[AmyMay]

Poor, poor boy. Absolutely devastating ?

 

[Moobli]

I like to think deed not breed but sadly sometimes the deed is so devastating (as in the case of the little boy in Wales) that it feels like the whole area of dog ownership needs a dramatic shakeup to try to avoid such a thing happening again. While we share our lives with animals though there will always be isolated incidents like this.
I own GSDs, and have had them for 30 years. Some would perhaps consider them likely to be aggressive or bite so should be on some sort of restricted list (they are in Southern Ireland). I would be prepared to sit a test or hold a licence to have my breed of choice if necessary, but it’s always the law abiding citizens who are penalised for the types who wouldn’t comply. As proven in this thread, pit bulls and other breeds are already banned in the UK but it hasn’t stopped people breeding and owning them or types like them. Rather than the breed or type being dangerous per se, it’s much more about the type of people who own them and why sadly. So I would like to see something done about assessing suitability for ownership of a breed, rather than just the banning of breeds ideally.
That said, some of these very strong, muscular bull breeds do make me nervous and I can’t personally see the appeal of such a dog as a family companion.

 

[Moobli]

Today the inquest has opened into Jacks death, unsurvivable head and neck injuries and in the bbc report it’s stated that the dog had been used as a stud dog in his previous home. It’s not really about the one dog, there could be lots of his sons and daughters out there, maybe already breeding themselves.

That poor little boy and his family - just horrific and the stuff of nightmares ?

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

The whole point though is that Labradors are not bred with the intent of them killing....well, anything. Their inbred instincts have been accentuated to retrieve and specifically NOT to kill, whereas the instincts and physical attributes of bull breeds, guarding breeds and attack breeds are what they are.

Absolutely, but then a finite and definite strategy, culling, is being discussed based on a subjective quality. They are bred to be attack dogs yes, but that doesn't mean that they are. I just think it's misguided to sanction an animal on it's potential to do something, when the reality is that the disposition of these dogs on the whole is very different.

I'm really just playing devils advocate with my comments, I understand and agree with the sentiment of the main posts on here. I just couldn't do it myself - killing a lovely and friendly pitbull and keeping a vile and aggressive labradoodle because a decision has been made based on genetic makeup alone would be an awful thing to do.

 

[bonny]

Absolutely, but then a finite and definite strategy, culling, is being discussed based on a subjective quality. They are bred to be attack dogs yes, but that doesn't mean that they are. I just think it's misguided to sanction an animal on it's potential to do something, when the reality is that the disposition of these dogs on the whole is very different.

I'm really just playing devils advocate with my comments, I understand and agree with the sentiment of the main posts on here. I just couldn't do it myself - killing a lovely and friendly pitbull and keeping a vile and aggressive labradoodle because a decision has been made based on genetic makeup alone would be an awful thing to do.

What would you do, assuming Beast has been a stud dog with his offspring ? Wait and see ?

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

you have to wonder why a family with a young boy have bought a 15 month old pit bull type . hardly the action of a normal family... i dont know what the answer is, maybe make it more difficult to buy a dog? i could go out tomorrow and buy a large powerful dog which would be ridiculous as i am a 75 yr old female with arthritis and dodgy hips, who is not that strong any more.. but there is no legislation to stop me but i am sensible and now have tiny terriers who i know i can manage in the unlikely event they tried to savage someone..there is no way i could manage the dog in question .. that dog should not have been alone with children. when my nieces were younger they were never left alone with any dogs no matter how good tempered they were, you just cant take a chance as they all have the potential to attack..

I think there should be far more education about keeping a dog and certainly no-one should leave a dog and a baby alone where the dog could savage the baby. Adults need to take responsibility for their choices.

 

[stangs]

That said, some of these very strong, muscular bull breeds do make me nervous and I can’t personally see the appeal of such a dog as a family companion.

Well, excluding people that buy them as a status symbol, I should think the appeal is of feeling protected. Most such breeds have a reputation of being nanny dogs: perfect around family, and scare off any strangers. You see all these stories on the news about children being kidnapped, people getting mugged etc that it’s no wonder people look for a protector in a dog.

If I was in the position to buy a dog, I’d be looking at a bull type breed provided I could find healthy lines. I don’t live in a dangerous area, but I would like to walk around feeling safe at 11pm, and you don’t get that feeling with Chihuahua.

 

[Karran]

Well, excluding people that buy them as a status symbol, I should think the appeal is of feeling protected. Most such breeds have a reputation of being nanny dogs: perfect around family, and scare off any strangers. You see all these stories on the news about children being kidnapped, people getting mugged etc that it’s no wonder people look for a protector in a dog.

If I was in the position to buy a dog, I’d be looking at a bull type breed provided I could find healthy lines. I don’t live in a dangerous area, but I would like to walk around feeling safe at 11pm, and you don’t get that feeling with Chihuahua.

I think that's the case in my area, they are taken as protection and status symbols. Over lockdown I've seen a massive increase in these types of breeds, plus cane corsos and other such types where people I guess have done the lockdown puppy thing and decided to combine it with something to protect their homes.
Unfortunately, they're just the wrong owners for these breeds and I fear something will go wrong one day.

 

[planete]

I was watching an ARTE programme on dogs https://www.arte.tv/en/videos/079474-051-A/re-hellhounds/ a few days ago and it would seem that in Germany they use a temperament test for some dogs who have committed minor aggressive offences to determine whether they are fit to go back into society. The dog who took the test had spent time with a trainer to instil respect for humans into him. If such a test was in place here and well run would it not be better than using physical aspect to determine whether a dog is truly dangerous? You do not know whether a dog is likely to go for your throat until he is provoked. Being a good pet 99% of the time is no guarantee that the dog will remain submissive under stress if his instinct tells him otherwise and he has not been thoroughly conditioned to put up with the stress by previous training.

 

[Cortez]

I'm not advocating an immediate mass cull of any particular breed, or any breed, I am suggesting that certain breeds should be phased out by not allowing any new breeding or sales to non-professional homes (pros would be the likes of military, police or security firms). I'm not sure how you're fixed in the UK, but certainly a dog license should include the breed or type of dog and thus it would be simple to check on the temperament of the animal, and the suitability of the home. I thought that was what the Dangerous Dogs Act was all about?

 

[Clodagh]

I'm not advocating an immediate mass cull of any particular breed, or any breed, I am suggesting that certain breeds should be phased out by not allowing any new breeding or sales to non-professional homes (pros would be the likes of military, police or security firms). I'm not sure how you're fixed in the UK, but certainly a dog license should include the breed or type of dog and thus it would be simple to check on the temperament of the animal, and the suitability of the home. I thought that was what the Dangerous Dogs Act was all about?

I can’t see any professional homes wanting a bull breed, I’ve owned an EBT and lived with pits and pit x grey and none have been very trainable. That’s the plus of GSDs as pro dogs, they are intelligent and want to learn.
The bullies I’ve known have been, well, not the brightest sparks.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

I'm not advocating an immediate mass cull of any particular breed, or any breed, I am suggesting that certain breeds should be phased out by not allowing any new breeding or sales to non-professional homes (pros would be the likes of military, police or security firms). I'm not sure how you're fixed in the UK, but certainly a dog license should include the breed or type of dog and thus it would be simple to check on the temperament of the animal, and the suitability of the home. I thought that was what the Dangerous Dogs Act was all about?

Unfortunately, no, not really. The DD Act was passed in response to concerns about temperament but sadly dogs are judged on their appearance rather than their temperament.

 

[some show]

I used to walk dogs for a council dog's home and on a semi-regular basis an official (possibly from DEFRA?) would come to view the dogs and anything deemed close to a pitbull would be measured (muzzle length etc) and even if it was clearly a staffie cross and as friendly as anything, if it met the measurements of a pitbull type it would have to be PTS. It was devastating to get to know these dogs and watch them be cared for by staff and then have them be PTS because their heads were just slightly the wrong shape.

 

[Cortez]

I can’t see any professional homes wanting a bull breed, I’ve owned an EBT and lived with pits and pit x grey and none have been very trainable. That’s the plus of GSDs as pro dogs, they are intelligent and want to learn.
The bullies I’ve known have been, well, not the brightest sparks.

That's kind of the point of my hypothetical solution - since pros wouldn't be wanting the bullies, they would no longer be bred and gently fade away.

I used to walk dogs for a council dog's home and on a semi-regular basis an official (possibly from DEFRA?) would come to view the dogs and anything deemed close to a pitbull would be measured (muzzle length etc) and even if it was clearly a staffie cross and as friendly as anything, if it met the measurements of a pitbull type it would have to be PTS. It was devastating to get to know these dogs and watch them be cared for by staff and then have them be PTS because their heads were just slightly the wrong shape.

Staffies have the propensity to be dangerous also, although I agree they are the nicest characters I have also seen them kill a lot of small pet animals.

 

[Clodagh]

I used to walk dogs for a council dog's home and on a semi-regular basis an official (possibly from DEFRA?) would come to view the dogs and anything deemed close to a pitbull would be measured (muzzle length etc) and even if it was clearly a staffie cross and as friendly as anything, if it met the measurements of a pitbull type it would have to be PTS. It was devastating to get to know these dogs and watch them be cared for by staff and then have them be PTS because their heads were just slightly the wrong shape.

That is sad but I guess any insurance company saying so you rehomed a pit bull type from a council pound and it bit someone or something would not make for good publicity.

 

[some show]

Staffies have the propensity to be dangerous also, although I agree they are the nicest characters I have also seen them kill a lot of small pet animals.

Yeah, again that's a case where you need to be a responsible owner. I have a retired coursing/racing greyhound and he'd like to murder every cat in existence as well as sometimes small squeaky dogs, but he stays on a lead unless in a secure field and wears a muzzle because I'm responsible and care about his safety and others'. Too many people are not aware enough or just plain don't care about their dog's natural instincts/potential for damage (to livestock, cats, other dogs etc).

 

[twiggy2]

Terriers were bred to be "game" and many are feisty little sh1ts (I swore I'd never have another after my much-loved JRT died at a great age). The most aggressive dog, and worst dog bite I've ever had, came from a toy poodle, and I'm pretty sure you could find cases of people being killed by them too. That's not the point though, is it? The point is that certain breeds have been developed precisely because they are inclined to be aggressive and capable of fighting. What is the justification for having a dog of this type? I mean other than "because I want one", for whatever reason?

I suppose the thing is that the vast majority of these dogs are not aggressive, many are just great fun digs or does on ropes. Many won't fight or have to be goaded into fighting at an early age and fight through being defensive and having to get jn first before being injured.
All dogs are capable of fighting.
That said I don't understand why any everyday owner would want a dog that is a banned brebreed or could be confused with a banned bred as the heartache that you must go through when they are seized ot the worry that they could be seized must be awful.
That poor lad, his family and any witnesses, it must be terrible for them all.

 

[AmyMay]

Yeah, again that's a case where you need to be a responsible owner. I have a retired coursing/racing greyhound and he'd like to murder every cat in existence as well as sometimes small squeaky dogs, but he stays on a lead unless in a secure field and wears a muzzle because I'm responsible and care about his safety and others'. Too many people are not aware enough or just plain don't care about their dog's natural instincts/potential for damage (to livestock, cats, other dogs etc).

Well said. My small dogs (Daisy in particular) are always put back on a lead and taken in the opposite direction if I see a greyhound. Not because I consider them a dangerous dog, but because I recognise that my small fluffy white thing could be a huge temptation for a coursing animal. My blood runs cold if I see a loose one running towards me. Same with the two loose male Sharpei’s that were very interested in my dogs yesterday - sadly one breed I’m very, very anxious to meet.

Thank you ?

 

[MotherOfChickens]

I dont see the point in these breeds at all. that poor kid.

re Staffies, there have been sensible conversations on here about their good and not so good points. I had a staffie cross rescue who would be playing nicely with another dog until something switched in her brain and while she would still be ‘playing’ the other dogs would really not appreciate it and generally run off. It really took me by surprise but was able to read the signs and call her back before the switch went. I mentioned it on here and the consensus was they were not great with other dogs. expect another breed who have been victims of indiscriminate breeding.

I am a husky and malamute fan, Ive worked them and spent time with them and know their prey drive and occasional propensity to not liking other dogs. One dog that gave me the definite heebies was an alleged Northern Inuit-it had a very unnerving way of watching my horses and I didn’t trust it in inch. Akita’s are another I would give a wide birth.

 

[twiggy2]

Pitbulls are not bred to be aggressive towards people, in fact many are destroyed if they show any aggression towards people, how do you think the people that train and fight them stitch up and treat wounds etc, the dogs have a high pain threshold and are very human tolerant.

 

[some show]

Well said. My small dogs (Daisy in particular) are always put back on a lead and taken in the opposite direction if I see a greyhound. Not because I consider them a dangerous dog, but because I recognise that my small fluffy white thing could be a huge temptation for a coursing animal. My blood runs cold if I see a loose one running towards me. Same with the two loose male Sharpei’s that were very interested in my dogs yesterday - sadly one breed I’m very, very anxious to meet.

Thank you ?

We would get on! Joe is really good with dogs on the lead now and has a lot of small dog friends, but if a tiny one runs and appears suddenly then it can still switch on his prey drive which is like the blink of an eye! I would never let him off the lead on a beach or anything like that. He's an absolute sweetheart but prey drive is no joke.

I'm sorry if you get ones running off lead towards you, you shouldn't have to deal with that. There are greyhounds out there with no prey drive and who're great with all sizes of dogs, but no one wants a giant 40mph dog running towards them!

 

[twiggy2]

I used to walk dogs for a council dog's home and on a semi-regular basis an official (possibly from DEFRA?) would come to view the dogs and anything deemed close to a pitbull would be measured (muzzle length etc) and even if it was clearly a staffie cross and as friendly as anything, if it met the measurements of a pitbull type it would have to be PTS. It was devastating to get to know these dogs and watch them be cared for by staff and then have them be PTS because their heads were just slightly the wrong shape.

If the dog measured as a pitbull how would you know it was clearly a staffy cross?

 

[some show]

If the dog measured as a pitbull how would you know it was clearly a staffy cross?

Well sure, I didn't know 100% - the majority of staffs weren't KC registered dogs you could track back through the ages - but they tended to be small and squat in stature, not like the taller pitbull. There was one which was brought into the home with a littermate, the staff were told they were staff x bull terrier - one was marked to be PTS by the DEFRA officer, the other wasn't, because one met the measurement criteria and the other didn't. That was how black and white it was.

 

[bonny]

Maybe all dogs should have to pass a test where they were fine off a lead with strangers ?