The SNP and Mrs Nicola Sturgeon

[MotherOfChickens]

Except that currently, we pay the EU money, they don't pay us. A separation under those circumstances makes rather more sense!

depends on your opinion doesn't it-you are pro Brexit and think we will be better off. I think its the biggest cluster**** of our generation. Time will tell.

We're never going to agree, which is fine. I just want to point out the hypocrisy of some of the points raised-leaving the thread again for another couple of months.

 

[Goldenstar]

your country voted for it, Scotland did not. Now 'you' can argue that Scotland is part of the UK and in a partnership but when a large proportion (arguably as big a margin as won Brexit)in Scotland doesn't agree that the partnership is equal (in democratic terms at least) or should mean exit from the EU then maybe it is time for change-a new partnership much like the new partnership much touted by the Tories about the EU.

The relationship is unequal ATM in Scotlands favour ,you get more money per head from the communal pot and you get to vote on English matters .
But we voted in the EU referendum as one country and it was to stay as one country that Scotland voted in the Indy ref .
It's a case of the the rough with the smooth you don't always get what you want.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

Can I just ask the sensible people of Scotland how much of the SNPs reaction is the genuine desire to stay or are they looking on the vote as the best chance ever to force through another vote on independence. Whatever NS has gone quieter and is it due to her not being so sure she has the backing she needs to achieve the ultimate goal.
I am in no way anti Scottish however many in England are really fed up with hearing your leader bleating on as im sure many north of the border are.

well of course, thats their point of being. same as those in NI causing upset-Brexit was always going to do this-the fact that Cameron was too stupid to see it or too arrogant to care is why so many are so angry about it.

The SNP also realises how important the EU is to them, in the UK or without. I've said it before, anyone in Scotland who voted SNP in the last election thinking they wouldn't be facing another Independence vote were daft. I don't believe they were daft though, I think many voted tactically and we'll have to wait for the next one to see what happens.

If you are fed up of our PM, now you know how fed up England's they've been up here

 

[alainax]

The relationship is unequal ATM in Scotlands favour ,you get more money per head from the communal pot and you get to vote on English matters .
But we voted in the EU referendum as one country and it was to stay as one country that Scotland voted in the Indy ref .
It's a case of the the rough with the smooth you don't always get what you want.

Bear in mind though during the Indy ref the "no thanks" campaign told Scotland that if they vote to leave they will be kicked from the EU. In actual fact voting "no" was the way in which to garuntee being kicked out the EU against our will.
Many people voted no to keep the status quo, that is now gone, we are being forced undemocratically to do what the big country next door wants, and the people of Scotland should be allowed the choice if they want to follow them over the cliff, or take their own path.

I was actually a bit shocked at the depth of the lies being allowed during the Brexit campaign, with no follow up after. If anything I hope Brexit will encourage people to see right through this in future, pretty tough lesson to learn right enough.

I dislike the " we as a country" voted for Brexit. The United Kingdom of Great Britain, which is made up of several countries voted. Some of th countries did not vote to leave the U.K. I know it can be argued the sovereign state of the UK is also a country, I don't think this union should overpower the countries within in. Each is a country in their own right. The SNP was in favour of each country having their own say, as clearly England with its huge majority would enhiliate the votes of the other countries. This was dismissed.

 

[ycbm]

I agree with you there. This was a monumental cock up my Cameron. He simply never expected, and had no plan for, an out vote. For me, it's the right result, and a lucky escape from the Federal State of Europe, (and increasing loss of autonomy which is, paradoxically, the very reason some in Scotland want to split from the UK) but I have always accepted that it has been achieved in the wrong way.

 

[Goldenstar]

I also think Cameron did not expect to hold the vote and when he decided to hold the vote he did sort of think it will all work out .

WHatever say I look at it referendums make for lazy populist politicians .

 

[cobgoblin]

I think Cameron did have to hold the vote...and not because of his own backbenchers. The uk's relationship with the eu has been shrouded in lies and evasions from the very beginning ...from joining the EEC, to Major trying to take us into the euro without our consent, to no vote on Maastricht....it was a steamroller to which the population had no brakes or controls.
UKIP was picking up votes from all parties purely because people wanted a referendum and the conservative heartlands were highly Eurosceptic. Not holding the referendum would have meant ukip gaining more and more ground .... Not because people believed in their policies but purely because they wanted their say on the eu.

So he did it...and all through the campaign I felt that Cameron's heart wasn't in it. I never felt Cameron actually believed half of what he was saying. He misjudged the level of Euroscepticism in the country and in himself. Not having a plan for Brexit was stupid but I'm not sure it was ever something that could really be planned for, given that it is a negotiation.
The eu was so arrogant that it gave him nothing to work with.
The opinion polls were useless because in this day and age people are wary of disclosing their intentions.
When it all went tits up...he panicked and bunked.

The result is what it is and that is that. Perhaps we have been in the eu too long for some to actually understand what real democracy is...you don't always get what you want but at least democracy makes decisions...something that the eu is very bad at.

Scotland, having chosen to remain in the uk, is part of that democratic decision. It's no good moaning that the campaign was poor, that there were lies ( as there were on both sides) ...if you cast a vote then it is your responsibility to check your facts..and that applies to indyref1 as well as the eu referendum, or indeed any election.

 

[Snuffles]

NS has gone quiet because she stated that she would be back with another plan after Easter !

 

[Goldenstar]

Bear in mind though during the Indy ref the "no thanks" campaign told Scotland that if they vote to leave they will be kicked from the EU. In actual fact voting "no" was the way in which to garuntee being kicked out the EU against our will.
Many people voted no to keep the status quo, that is now gone, we are being forced undemocratically to do what the big country next door wants, and the people of Scotland should be allowed the choice if they want to follow them over the cliff, or take their own path.

I was actually a bit shocked at the depth of the lies being allowed during the Brexit campaign, with no follow up after. If anything I hope Brexit will encourage people to see right through this in future, pretty tough lesson to learn right enough.

I dislike the " we as a country" voted for Brexit. The United Kingdom of Great Britain, which is made up of several countries voted. Some of th countries did not vote to leave the U.K. I know it can be argued the sovereign state of the UK is also a country, I don't think this union should overpower the countries within in. Each is a country in their own right. The SNP was in favour of each country having their own say, as clearly England with its huge majority would enhiliate the votes of the other countries. This was dismissed.

Why would England give its self over further to the tyranny of the minority ?
What possible reason might we have had to do that ?
Scotland population is just over a tenth of England's .
It may come as a shock to some Scots but the English are not stupid .

 

[cobgoblin]

I know it can be argued the sovereign state of the UK is also a country, I don't think this union should overpower the countries within in. .

But it's ok for the European Union to overpower the countries within it,is it? Scotland will be an even smaller voice in the EU than it is in the UK.

 

[popsdosh]

But it's ok for the European Union to overpower the countries within it,is it? Scotland will be an even smaller voice in the EU than it is in the UK.

This is the whole thing I cannot understand about Scotlands argument. We are at present a major nett contributor to the EU ,Scotland at best will be looked upon as another Greece a big drain on their already depleted income ,im sure they will be very welcome. Uk on its own is the fifth largest economy in the world do you not think we can stand on our own two feet.
To many scare stories put about by NS to achieve another vote on the holy grail. You watch her trying to hold on to UK if the EU are not that welcoming she knows the truth of where the money comes from to pursue her socialist agenda. To put some meat on the bones every English tax payer contributes approx £350 to every member of the public north of the border and thats just the difference between the funding.

 

[Judgemental]

Mrs May's call for a General Election at this time is remarkably shrewd and brilliantly tailored to decimate the SNP who, I confidently predict will be annihilated at the polls.

Aside from the fact they simply do not have the money to fight a traditional General Election campaign.

Loyalty, Patriotism and Kindred Spirit with the United Kingdom, will be writ large across Scotland and I am told, that right minded Scotsmen and Women will realise that this election, has in part been generated by Ms Sturgeon's disloyal and unpatriotic political game playing.

If as predicted, Mrs May gets the mandate and majority she wants, the SNP whatever their numbers, can whistle in the wind post election, because the Westminster Parliament will be in an very strong position to robustly deal with dissenters.

The Scots are a great people and are very astute at realising which side their bread is buttered.

 

[Judgemental]

SNP might scrape home with 20 seats at the General Election.

 

[claret09]

I hate to criticise anyone, however, I sometimes think we possibly need to find ms sturgeon and her team a deserted Scottish island to live on so that they could do exactly as they pleased

 

[Fragglerock]

I dislike the " we as a country" voted for Brexit. The United Kingdom of Great Britain, which is made up of several countries voted. Some of th countries did not vote to leave the U.K. I know it can be argued the sovereign state of the UK is also a country, I don't think this union should overpower the countries within in. Each is a country in their own right. The SNP was in favour of each country having their own say, as clearly England with its huge majority would enhiliate the votes of the other countries. This was dismissed.

Scotland could have swung the vote the other way if those who didn't vote had voted to Remain.

 

[popsdosh]

I hate to criticise anyone, however, I sometimes think we possibly need to find ms sturgeon and her team a deserted Scottish island to live on so that they could do exactly as they pleased

Perhaps we could all club together and buy them one somewhere around the Danish or Dutch coast then they would be happy as part of he EU.

 

[alainax]

Perhaps we could all club together and buy them one somewhere around the Danish or Dutch coast then they would be happy as part of he EU.

Sounds like a line from a movie " the trouble with Scotland, is all the damn Scots..."

I'm beginning to think judgemental has some weird agenda with his/her SNP bashing thread. Which for some weird reason has a huge majority of English folk bashing in it.



I'd never dare to start a derogatory Sinn Féin or Plaid Cymru thread as frankly it's ****** all to do with me!


You hate the SNP, we get it. I very much dislike tories, even more so Ms May who quite frankly I don't not recognise as prime minister. I hate ukip, and hate Brexit. We are never going to agree but your constant SNP bashing is getting tedious.

 

[ycbm]

I'd never dare to start a derogatory Sinn Féin or Plaid Cymru thread as frankly it's ****** all to do with me!

As far as I know, neither the Irish nor the Welsh use taxes I pay to get £2,000 per head more public spending than equally poor areas of England and then do nothing but complain about it.

 

[alainax]

Labour voters voting Tory is the strangest thing. I know the reasoning... some of the older generation, die hard life long labour supporters don't want independence so won't vote SNP, labour is a mess so they can't look to them seriously. So they vote Tory as an anti independence vote, sometimes without realising it is the exact opposite of the political values which they hold.

Ironically if Scotland were to become independent, labour could win the majority again, as our government wouldn't be influenced by English votes.

 

[alainax]

As far as I know, neither the Irish nor the Welsh use taxes I pay to get £2,000 per head more public spending than equally poor areas of England and then do nothing but complain about it.

They also haven't had their oil stolen for 50+ years, with no proper accountancy. The money thing is not my bug bear though, it's getting no say in government. The big country next door voting polar opposite to you, and you have to lump it.

We are going round in circles here. I accepted the no vote, won't I don't accept is being dragged out the EU against our will. Particularly as no voters were promised it was the only way to stay in the Eu.

Some English folk talk of the hate some big union taking money from them, dictating laws and practices to them.., yet when Scotland voices the same opinion we are told to stop complaining.

Worst still, imagine if the EU chose which party shall lead your government. Don't like it? Tough. Then EU tells you to stop complaining, we give you money, so shut it. Charming right?

Maybe the Eu should have told England to stop complaining...

 

[alainax]

However, I do think it's time I stop posting here. Its very clear we are at polar opposites in opinion, and me posting in this thread is only bumping it even more than judgmental does already.

I do like a good debate but the anti Scottish rhetoric and hypocrisy of voting out of the EU but slating Scotland for wanting out of a worse union is unfathomable.

 

[popsdosh]

They also haven't had their oil stolen for 50+ years, with no proper accountancy. The money thing is not my bug bear though, it's getting no say in government. The big country next door voting polar opposite to you, and you have to lump it.

We are going round in circles here. I accepted the no vote, won't I don't accept is being dragged out the EU against our will. Particularly as no voters were promised it was the only way to stay in the Eu.

Some English folk talk of the hate some big union taking money from them, dictating laws and practices to them.., yet when Scotland voices the same opinion we are told to stop complaining.

Worst still, imagine if the EU chose which party shall lead your government. Don't like it? Tough. Then EU tells you to stop complaining, we give you money, so shut it. Charming right?

Maybe the Eu should have told England to stop complaining...

You are not being dragged out of the EU against your will! The UK is an EU member and we voted to leave.
I am not anti Scottish people but we get fed up with NS poking her nose into english politics and she is not even a member of the UK parliament. At least you guys north of the border have your own devolved government and a degree of autonomy and to be frank if not for the UK NS would bankrupt you pretty quickly.
I should think NS is reeling a bit after yesterday as she should have gained in excess of 100 new council seats now she has to try and put a brave face on it. Whos going to have sleepless nights leading up to june 8th NS or RD ,even with all the Scottish seats going SNP she will have no power left to influence the UK parliament.

 

[alainax]

I am not anti Scottish people but we get fed up with NS poking her nose into english politics and she is not even a member of the UK parliament. At least you guys north of the border have your own devolved government and a degree of autonomy and to be frank if not for the UK NS would bankrupt you pretty quickly.

Actually I agree with you on that. Neither country should interfere with the other. The SNP shouldn't be voting on English laws, as long as the Tory government don't dictate things to us. I'd actually be really happy with that. All completely separate governments, keeping the hell out of each other's business whilst maintainable strong friendly links. You don't want SNP in Westminster or Scotland to get an "unfair" subsidy, they surely you'd be pro independence.

And on the face of things whilst I think SNP is better than Tory, I don't agree with all their policies. If Scotland was independent they may then struggle to fight off proper opposition. But at least then, when Scotland is independent we get to choose the government whether it's SNP or not, and not just having to put up with whatever England votes for.

 

[alainax]

,even with all the Scottish seats going SNP she will have no power left to influence the UK parliament.

You've hit the nail on the head. Even if the whole country votes for one party, it means ****** all. Essentially we have no voice.

Imagine if every single county in England voted Tory, every single one. But France voted labour, they have more people, so you are getting a whole majorly labour, labour prime minster whether you like it or not.

 

[cobgoblin]

If there's a bill to be paid for the uk leaving the eu....I wonder what the bill would be for Scotland leaving the uk?

 

[ycbm]

I do like a good debate but the anti Scottish rhetoric and hypocrisy of voting out of the EU but slating Scotland for wanting out of a worse union is unfathomable.

The unfathomable bit is Scotland wanting out of the Union because their voice is not heard and wanting to go independent into the increasingly federalist EU and think their voice will be heard there. Baffling.

 

[ycbm]

They also haven't had their oil stolen for 50+ years, with no proper accountancy. The money thing is not my bug bear though, it's getting no say in government. The big country next door voting polar opposite to you, and you have to lump it.

We are going round in circles here. I accepted the no vote, won't I don't accept is being dragged out the EU against our will. Particularly as no voters were promised it was the only way to stay in the Eu.

Some English folk talk of the hate some big union taking money from them, dictating laws and practices to them.., yet when Scotland voices the same opinion we are told to stop complaining.

Worst still, imagine if the EU chose which party shall lead your government. Don't like it? Tough. Then EU tells you to stop complaining, we give you money, so shut it. Charming right?

Maybe the Eu should have told England to stop complaining...

I've done all the sums on oil on a previous post and you've been paid back every penny and a lot, lot more by the Barnett formula, which was supposed, thirty years ago, to be temporary.

You are paid ten billion a year, it adds up over thirty years!

You are not being dragged out against your will. If the people who couldn't be bothered to vote had voted, then England and Wales would be kept in against their will. But that would have been fine with you, wouldn't it?

It's democracy. It's the best of a flawed bunch of ways of managing millions of people.

 

[cobgoblin]

The unfathomable bit is Scotland wanting out of the Union because their voice is not heard and wanting to go independent into the increasingly federalist EU and think their voice will be heard there. Baffling.

And Scotland will have to be a net contributor....without the Barnett formula.

 

[Judgemental]

However, I do think it's time I stop posting here. Its very clear we are at polar opposites in opinion, and me posting in this thread is only bumping it even more than judgmental does already.

I do like a good debate but the anti Scottish rhetoric and hypocrisy of voting out of the EU but slating Scotland for wanting out of a worse union is unfathomable.

It is a question of friendly warnings or shall one say, advice to all right thinking Scotsmen and women, as to the inevitable demise of separatists since time immemorial in just about all global theaters.

Take for example the fate of Le Front de libération du Québec.

The ringleaders were arrested by the Canadian government and deported to Jamaica in about 1970.

Another poster has subsequently mentioned sending the SNP to an isolated island. Claret said "I hate to criticise anyone, however, I sometimes think we possibly need to find ms sturgeon and her team a deserted Scottish island to live on so that they could do exactly as they pleased".

I believe Gruinard Island is still completely uninhabited and now free of Anthrax following the experiments in 1942. It's spectacularly isolated and part of Scotland. If isolation is what the SNP want!

 

[fburton]

don't want independence so won't vote SNP

Voting SNP doesn't mean you want an independent Scotland. That issue will have to be settled in another referendum, not in the GE ballot box.