The SNP and Mrs Nicola Sturgeon

[alainax]

Then there's the "France " specific spending. France wants to build a high speed railway, hundreds of millions of pound. Englands taxes will be paying for it, cause you know... if France has HS then England prospers right?

Paris Olympic Games. Englands taxes pay, cause well, England must have some benift right?

 

[ycbm]

Alainx, I don't call getting 20% more Public spending than the rest of the UK being given 'pocket money'.

And I don't accept that no-one has worked out the true financial contribution that Scotland makes to the economy of the UK and that you are somehow due even more!

 

[alainax]

I've pointed this pointed this out before, and I'll do it every time a Scot makes these claims about all the oil we've stolen from them.

When Scotland works out how much oil money they have 'given' England, they draw a line directly out from the point where the border ends into the sea.

The international convention on who owns what oil is to extend the line at the same angle as the border was when it met the sea, and on that basis, Scotland owned less than half the oil they claim.

This was confirmed in a report commissioned by your own parliament.

I've looked at the oil field maps. Seems the vast majority are in Scottish waters. Of course not the one off the east of England, but most seem north of the border.

 

[Judgemental]

The OP Judgemental is actually a bit scary, sounds like an anti Scottish extremist!

Not in the least on the contrary. Indeed I fully support all things Scottish except Ms Sturgeon and the SNP.

I am anti Nicola Sturgeon because she told the UK electorate she would abdicate the SNP from votes involving votes for English Laws.

That is precisely why the issue of Ms Sturgeon is being debated on this website and now represents one of the longest running and certainly the most number of views of any thread.

During the General Election campaign, Ms Sturgeon said she would instruct the SNP in the House of Commons, to stand aside from any vote on Foxhunting in England and Wales and or any amendment via Statutory Instrument to the 2004 Hunting Act.

When this was set down in the House of Commons, the SNP proposed to welch, run word and or said they would vote against the government so the vote had to be pulled.

Had the vote gone through, it would have merely brought the 2004 Hunting Act into line with the Scottish Hunting Act.

For all practical purposes it would have helped the many small farmers in the West Country concerning the removal and or management of the large herds of red deer, which do considerable amounts of damage.

As far as I am concerned, for that reason Ms Sturgeon is not a fit and proper person to be the first minister of Scotland because she cannot be trusted. Had the SNP kept their word concerning the hunting I would never have started this thread.

I also question her loyalty and patriotism to the United Kingdom and the fact she is misleading the Scottish people rather like the pied piper of Hamlin.

 

[ycbm]

Then there's the "France " specific spending. France wants to build a high speed railway, hundreds of millions of pound. Englands taxes will be paying for it, cause you know... if France has HS then England prospers right?

Paris Olympic Games. Englands taxes pay, cause well, England must have some benift right?

You have a chip on each shoulder so big you're actually coming across as relatively balanced

 

[ycbm]

.....

 

[ycbm]

I've pointed this pointed this out before, and I'll do it every time a Scot makes these claims about all the oil we've stolen from them.

When Scotland works out how much oil money they have 'given' England, they draw a line directly out from the point where the border ends into the sea.

The international convention on who owns what oil is to extend the line at the same angle as the border was when it met the sea, and on that basis, Scotland owned less than half the oil they claim.

This was confirmed in a report commissioned by your own parliament.

I have to add that I can't find the report at the moment and I wondering if it was 'fake news'. In which case, I apologise. I'll keep searching.

 

[ycbm]

For all practical purposes it would have helped the many small farmers in the West Country concerning the removal and or management of the large herds of red deer, which do considerable amounts of damage.

There are people queuing up round here to be allowed to shoot deer by stalking. The reason Cameron wanted the law changed is because it would have ended forever the possibility of anyone ever being prosecuted for illegally hunting fox so long as any member of the field was carrying a gun.

 

[Judgemental]

There are people queuing up round here to be allowed to shoot deer by stalking. The reason Cameron wanted the law changed is because it would have ended forever the possibility of anyone ever being prosecuted for illegally hunting fox so long as any member of the field was carrying a gun.

Exactly and the amendment via statutory instrument, would have caused the Hunting Act 2004 to precisely mirror the act in Scotland which at the time of the vote in Holyrood was supported by the SNP.

There have been 40,794 views of this thread (the largest number of any thread since the website was created) and I confidently predict that the issue of English Votes for English laws, will be Ms Sturgeon's nemesis, because the Scottish people will weigh the options and realise she cannot be trusted.

In dealing with the EU she would be totally defeminized (the alternative of emasculated).

 

[Fidgety]

Then there's the "France " specific spending. France wants to build a high speed railway, hundreds of millions of pound. Englands taxes will be paying for it, cause you know... if France has HS then England prospers right?

Not sure what you're actually trying to say above, but at the moment the UK has absolutely no choice regarding the building of HS2 - HS2 (or rather the UK's name for its part of 'the creation of a single, efficient and competitive market for rail throughout Europe.') is an EU directive.

http://orr.gov.uk/about-orr/what-we-do/the-law/eu-law

 

[Snuffles]

I don't think HS2 will make our rail service efficient ! It stinks an d especially the Southern service - or not -at the moment !

 

[Fidgety]

Couldn't agree more Snuffles.

 

[ycbm]

The claim that Scotland had been robbed of its oil has bugged me for some time, so I've done some research.

Oil revenues are here:

The Barnet formula gives Scotland £10 billion a year more in public spending than the English. It's been going on for 29 years, and has been reduced in that time so for the sake of easy sums let's call it 30.

I make that a total of £300 billion pounds.

Meanwhile, the total oil income is shown above, in a chart I got from a Scottish nationalist site and assume is correct. Total oil revenues over the period were about £125,000 billion.

I'm failing to see how the Scots were deprived of anything here. They seem to already have had back twice what the UK got, and yet they continue to get 20% higher spending per head than the English.

Or have i got my sums wrong?

 

[alainax]

The claim that Scotland had been robbed of its oil has bugged me for some time, so I've done some research.

Oil revenues are here:

The Barnet formula gives Scotland £10 billion a year more in public spending than the English. It's been going on for 29 years, and has been reduced in that time so for the sake of easy sums let's call it 30.

I make that a total of £300 billion pounds.

Meanwhile, the total oil income is shown above, in a chart I got from a Scottish nationalist site and assume is correct. Total oil revenues over the period were about £125,000 billion.

I'm failing to see how the Scots were deprived of anything here. They seem to already have had back twice what the UK got, and yet they continue to get 20% higher spending per head than the English.

Or have i got my sums wrong?

Not quite. We don't get £10 billion more than the English, we get a tiny % of what England gets, around 10% or so of England's expenditure. What we do get is more per head of population as England is more densely packed. With further distance between services they do get for expensive per head of population, but certainly not £10 billion more than England.

Our streets would be paved in gold if we got £10billion more spending than England , incidentally Your sums show that even if we did, oil revenue alone has paid for over a third, not including income tax, vat, corporation tax etc etc.

 

[alainax]

The Barnet formula gives Scotland £10 billion a year more in public spending than the English. ?

England gets £467 billion
Scotland gets £52 billion

But if you fancy giving us £477 billion I'll promise not to post in this thread anymore!

 

[alainax]

In regards to the earlier post about English votes for English laws, i actually entirely agree. However, that has to work both ways. I 100% think that Scottish MPs should not get a say on the speed limit on English roads, on the English hunting ban, on school places etc. I list these things as as long as all money goes to England, then the tiny fraction of Scottish MPs there should get a voice on how it is spent.


However that also means England shouldn't be forcing Scotland out of the eu, making policies that suit only England, deciding on scotlands immigrating polices etc.

I am all for being equal partners in a union and keeping our noses out of each other's business, so why don't we devolve Westminster. Each country within this union having its own rules, its own finicial automony, working for what is best for its own people, and not telling the other what to do. Seems logical to me.

 

[alainax]

England gets £467 billion
Scotland gets £52 billion

But if you fancy giving us £477 billion I'll promise not to post in this thread anymore!

Sorry I keep posting after myself, but just wanted to add, the money thing is just one aspect of it all. I'd still be pro Indy even if it is proven that in the short term Scotland would be worse off. There are many small nations similar sized to ours who do blooming well with the right management and less assets. I think It would be quite nice to live in a country where we get what we vote for. Where decisions are made which are of our benefit, and not only that if the country next door. It would be nice to have our own countries flag in emojis,,,

 

[ycbm]

Not quite. We don't get £10 billion more than the English, we get a tiny % of what England gets, around 10% or so of England's expenditure. What we do get is more per head of population as England is more densely packed. With further distance between services they do get for expensive per head of population, but certainly not £10 billion more than England.

Our streets would be paved in gold if we got £10billion more spending than England , incidentally Your sums show that even if we did, oil revenue alone has paid for over a third, not including income tax, vat, corporation tax etc etc.

You get nearly two thousand pounds per head per year. About five million people times two thousand. That's about ten billion.



Every year.


As compensation for taking 'your' oil, which by my reckoning we have already paid for twice over and with no sign of it stopping even though Barnett was supposed, thirty years ago, to be a short term measure.

 

[cobgoblin]

We'd all be better off if Scotland left. Perhaps it's the rest of the U.K. that should be voting.

 

[Goldenstar]

We'd all be better off if Scotland left. Perhaps it's the rest of the U.K. that should be voting.

This is a fair point give the English the vote and suspect they would vote to ditch Scotland .

 

[fburton]

This is a fair point give the English the vote and suspect they would vote to ditch Scotland .

I suspect the support for that would be stronger with the Brexit-minded than with the Status quoists.

Better then if England had had a single vote to secede from both the EU and the UK, leaving Scotland inside the EU? Hmm, I wonder. Impossible in practice, but an attractive idea nonetheless?

 

[popsdosh]

I suspect the support for that would be stronger with the Brexit-minded than with the Status quoists.

Better then if England had had a single vote to secede from both the EU and the UK, leaving Scotland inside the EU? Hmm, I wonder. Impossible in practice, but an attractive idea nonetheless?

I very much doubt thats the case we are ALL fed up with NS bleating on and trying to stamp her feet . There was a UK wide referendum and she didnt like the result grow up . Why dont we split the British isles down the middle and the remainers can live in one half and the Brexit lot in the other. Or better still all the remainers move to an independant scotland then you can have all those mouthy lot that cannot accept the result of a democratic vote!! lets face it you have enough land area for them.
What does Scotland get from the EU that makes it so attractive ? Or as I suspect its being politically used as an excuse to call for independence again. I never once up until last years vote saw anything from NS about her not accepting the democratic vote of the UK. However now the SNP now have some serious questions to answer ie why are Schools getting worse and hospital waiting times getting worse even though they are spending 2k per head more it makes a good political smoke screen. When are you guys north of the border going to realise what they are doing is unsustainable.

 

[Goldenstar]

The most attractive idea is if we could magic are selves away from the situation were so much time energy and money is spent on these issues and spend that time energy and money on Problem solving instead .
However that can't happen so we have to get on with it.
I did not want to leave the European Union but I am not one of the remain camp who are in the neverendum way of thinking and it's a case of wrong answer vote again until you get it right .
And of course that wants going on in Scotland it's hardly five minutes since the last referendum but wrong answer vote again is the cry if the vote had gone the other way would the fuss have been the same I think not.
I basically bored of Scotland I know that the majority of people who live there are not harbouring the unpleasant anti English sentiments that you saw on display during the last campaign but I won't forget the things I heard expressed .
On the the EU I am to be honest a bit heartbroken on lots of levels but mainly for my OH's family in Ireland they went through so much nastiness and things were transformed and the EU was a big part of that .

 

[MotherOfChickens]

I basically bored of Scotland I know that the majority of people who live there are not harbouring the unpleasant anti English sentiments that you saw on display during the last campaign but I won't forget the things I heard expressed .

I know its not a popular belief among the British press but not all pro-Independence voters are anti-English. Its a small, vocal minority. It is possible to be pro-Independence and not a rabid nat. Those of you who cannot understand the frustration of Scotland and NI being taken out of the EU and that we should all just suck it up simply just don't get it and I don't know how to get you get it! Alainax had the best analogy about the French but was just told she had a chip on her shoulder

On the flip side of that, some in England should maybe realise that the English are not universally loved in the world and wonder why that might be. Easy to say its all history and people need to buck up, when you're not the ones affected. I am English, I have been on the end of anti-English rhetoric in Wales (when I was a child), the US (some of them really hate us), Australia, South Africa and yes, Scotland but not without reason. Is it my fault? No of course not but it needs to be understood.

As an English person, I am dismayed at what I am seeing in England right now and still hoping that is a small vocal minority over represented in the press.Form the outside it looks like a hate filled, wretched place heavily relying on an over inflated sense of historic entitlement with a totally inept government who's PM looks out of her depth. Incorrect? well maybe the English press's version of Scotland is inaccurate as well. There are several regular posters on this thread that I really respect and value their opinions (and then there's Judgemental ) so I hate it when it descends into a bashing all of Scotland and the Scottish type vibe.

 

[Goldenstar]

I am being forced out of the EU as well but I have the grace to accept it .
I don't see the difference .

 

[ycbm]

Those of you who cannot understand the frustration of Scotland and NI being taken out of the EU and that we should all just suck it up simply just don't get it and I don't know how to get you get it! Alainax had the best analogy about the French but was just told she had a chip on her shoulder

I do get it. I was talking to my OH yesterday about how I got it.

My comment about Alainax was related to an awful lot more than her French analogy and was a reply to the specifics of being forced to finance a railway that most people in England don't want either and an Olympic games that was - yet again - based in the separate country of Londonistan.

The French analogy also doesn't work, because France aren't financing them to have public services which are better than the people in France have.

Alainax doesn't even seem to be able to imagine that there are plenty of English people who don't get what they want in a democracy. It's the best of a flawed lot of ways of running a country. So what is the point of all this endless anguish about it? What can actually be changed?

The Scots should get another vote in 2020 and the result of that should be the end of it, imo. Then if the Nationalists get what they want, I will sit back and watch the EU unfold on them the biggest austerity budget they could possibly imagine.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

I am being forced out of the EU as well but I have the grace to accept it .
I don't see the difference .

your country voted for it, Scotland did not. Now 'you' can argue that Scotland is part of the UK and in a partnership but when a large proportion (arguably as big a margin as won Brexit)in Scotland doesn't agree that the partnership is equal (in democratic terms at least) or should mean exit from the EU then maybe it is time for change-a new partnership much like the new partnership much touted by the Tories about the EU.

 

[ycbm]

.

Better then if England had had a single vote to secede from both the EU and the UK, leaving Scotland inside the EU? Hmm, I wonder. Impossible in practice, but an attractive idea nonetheless?

Very attractive to the English, but can you tell me where Scotland is going to make the austerity cuts necessary to join the Euro? Because it won't be allowed to keep the pound and borrow on the international markets to finance the Scottish socialist utopian dream on the strength of the pound.

 

[ycbm]

maybe it is time for change-a new partnership much like the new partnership much touted by the Tories about the EU.

Except that currently, we pay the EU money, they don't pay us. A separation under those circumstances makes rather more sense!

I'm with you all the way if you give up your 10 billion a year Barnett money and don't expect to finance Scottish public services by running up huge debts on the strength and size of the English economy.

 

[popsdosh]

your country voted for it, Scotland did not. Now 'you' can argue that Scotland is part of the UK and in a partnership but when a large proportion (arguably as big a margin as won Brexit)in Scotland doesn't agree that the partnership is equal (in democratic terms at least) or should mean exit from the EU then maybe it is time for change-a new partnership much like the new partnership much touted by the Tories about the EU.

Where do you draw the boundaries though ,we held a UK wide referendum which the SNP endorsed with a result that was going to encompass the whole of the UK . Now tell me that was not the case . Why dont we just allow anybody who has a contrary view to stay in the EU and I mean down to the individual we all know it wont work! Sorry to state the obvious also Scotland are not part of the EU and whatever propaganda you get from the SNP it is not a slam dunk that they would be allowed to join.
Can I just ask the sensible people of Scotland how much of the SNPs reaction is the genuine desire to stay or are they looking on the vote as the best chance ever to force through another vote on independence. Whatever NS has gone quieter and is it due to her not being so sure she has the backing she needs to achieve the ultimate goal.
I am in no way anti Scottish however many in England are really fed up with hearing your leader bleating on as im sure many north of the border are.