The SNP and Mrs Nicola Sturgeon

[Snuffles]

How many MPs do the SNP have in our Parliament at the moment ( or until the GE was called) they had a say in Government
otherwise whats the point of them being there at all

 

[Buddy'sMum]

I've done all the sums on oil on a previous post and you've been paid back every penny and a lot, lot more by the Barnett formula, which was supposed, thirty years ago, to be temporary.

You make it sound like it was Scotland who came up with the Barnett Yes, it's unfair. So why hasn't it been replaced? If Scotland's such a financial burden on rUK, why not scrap Barnett and give Scotland full fiscal autonomy?

 

[Alec Swan]

They also haven't had their oil stolen for 50+ years, with no proper accountancy. The money thing is not my bug bear though, it's getting no say in government. The big country next door voting polar opposite to you, and you have to lump it.

We are going round in circles here. I accepted the no vote, won't I don't accept is being dragged out the EU against our will. Particularly as no voters were promised it was the only way to stay in the Eu.

Some English folk talk of the hate some big union taking money from them, dictating laws and practices to them.., yet when Scotland voices the same opinion we are told to stop complaining.

Worst still, imagine if the EU chose which party shall lead your government. Don't like it? Tough. Then EU tells you to stop complaining, we give you money, so shut it. Charming right?

Maybe the Eu should have told England to stop complaining...

Para 1: Scottish parliament is now devolved with no outside influence from England. Scottish MPs however, can and do influence Westminster, always to their own ends and never, it seems to me, with any thought to the common good of the UK in it's entirety.

Your arguments generally have well structured points, but to suggest that the oil which lays off the Scottish coast has been stolen, is clearly wrong.

Para II: Staying as part of the UK will be linked to the common decision to leave. It's the same situation with Majorca. In both cases, if you wish to stay in the EU then you will need to change your allegiance. It's one or the other, not both.

Para III: There is much which is wrong with the prevailing system, I agree with that and when Devolution was demanded by Scotland, the chance to run their own affairs was the argument given. Mostly, the opportunities have been squandered, and never forget that should Scotland stand alone then the grip which the EU currently hold will be tightened. Stay in the EU and retain control of your oil and fishing? Not a hope in hell.

Para IV: They did and that's why as a nation, we voted to leave. Had Scotland been given independence then the English vote would have been overwhelming.

Alec.

 

[ycbm]

You make it sound like it was Scotland who came up with the Barnett Yes, it's unfair. So why hasn't it been replaced? If Scotland's such a financial burden on rUK, why not scrap Barnett and give Scotland full fiscal autonomy?

Because you would borrow to the limit against the strength of the pound to finance your socialist dreams and expect the UK to bail out your banks - again- when they fail.

 

[Buddy'sMum]

Voting SNP doesn't mean you want an independent Scotland. That issue will have to be settled in another referendum, not in the GE ballot box.

Yes but I think what alainax meant was that a considerable proportion of pro-union voters in Scotland will never vote SNP regardless of how good a candidate is. Which might be why Motherwell South East & Ravenscraig now has a Tory councillor...FFS

 

[Buddy'sMum]

Because you would borrow to the limit against the strength of the pound to finance your socialist dreams and expect the UK to bail out your banks - again- when they fail.

Or maybe not. Maybe a Scottish government would actually manage the North Sea oil & gas revenues properly?

 

[Buddy'sMum]

How many MPs do the SNP have in our Parliament at the moment ( or until the GE was called) they had a say in Government
otherwise whats the point of them being there at all

56. What's the point? Well, I think opposition parties come in handy sometimes.

 

[ycbm]

Or maybe not. Maybe a Scottish government would actually manage the North Sea oil & gas revenues properly?

Please, do tell us how you would have spent the £60 million that you made from oil last year? With Barnett gone, that will only leave you £9940,000,000, £9.94 billion, still to find.

I'm not bashing Scotland, I'm really not, these are just facts that can't be ignored.

 

[millikins]

The table shows:

8 elections when the electorates of Scotland and England voted the same (1945, 1950, 1955, 1959, 1966, Oct 1974, 1997, 2001) and got the governments each wished (6 Labour and 2 Tory)


5 elections when the Scottish electorate prevented the outcome that England had voted for:


1 election when more people in England voted Labour but got a Tory government Scotland voted for (1951);
3 elections when more people voted Tory in England but got the Labour government Scotland voted for ( 1964, Feb 1974, 2005); and
1 election when Scotland prevented Tories from getting the overall majority which was voted for by the English electorate (in 2010).

Just a 10 second Google from "Planet Pedro" shows the outcome of all 18 elections post war except 2015. So not quite the big country next door continuously bullying poor little Scotland

 

[ycbm]

The table shows:

8 elections when the electorates of Scotland and England voted the same (1945, 1950, 1955, 1959, 1966, Oct 1974, 1997, 2001) and got the governments each wished (6 Labour and 2 Tory)


5 elections when the Scottish electorate prevented the outcome that England had voted for:


1 election when more people in England voted Labour but got a Tory government Scotland voted for (1951);
3 elections when more people voted Tory in England but got the Labour government Scotland voted for ( 1964, Feb 1974, 2005); and
1 election when Scotland prevented Tories from getting the overall majority which was voted for by the English electorate (in 2010).

Just a 10 second Google from "Planet Pedro" shows the outcome of all 18 elections post war except 2015. So not quite the big country next door continuously bullying poor little Scotland

Well doesn't that just put the lid on the 'we are being told what to do by the bigger country' ?

Elections since the war, 19

Both sides vote the same 8

Scotland overrules England 5

England overruled Scotland 6

Very interesting, thank Millikins.



I have never ever heard a single person complain that they didn't get the government they wanted because of the Scots vote.

 

[alainax]

However here, it states in every election since 1945, Scotlands votes has only had an influence on the result 3 times. The rest of the time it was going to be what England wanted no matter what. Sure, there was times when both were wanting the same, like the 9 times Scotland voted for labour, and the rest of the uk voted labour too, so labour it was.

But that's not to dismiss the one third of the time where they vote different and scotlands votes having no influence.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/gen...ns-where-Scotland-decided-who-ran-the-UK.html

Counting form 1975 alone, Scotland has only got the party it voted for 50% of the time, when both countries were voting the same way. The other half of the time we get the opposite and had no influence.

 

[ycbm]

However here, it states in every election since 1945, Scotland has only had an influence on the result 3 times.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/gen...ns-where-Scotland-decided-who-ran-the-UK.html

Well let's take that as a worst case then. That means that in three, possibly four, (forty percent), of the ten elections since the war where Scotland and England voted differently, well under one tenth of the population of the UK changed the result for the other well over nine tenths.

Not surprisingly, Scotland did not complain on those occasions. More importantly, neither did England.

 

[alainax]

Infact from 1970, there has been 11 general elections. In 6 of those, Scotland got the opposite of what they voted for. More than half of the time, in the most recent general elections, Scotland votes a different way from England, and the resulting government is of English choosing.

And I get that England has more people, so of course they get the majority and quite rightly so. But we are talking about 2 different countries here, with differing needs. I don't think Scotland should have an influence over the English government just as much as I don't think England should have over Scotland.

Prime example is we need people, England has a housing shortage, over crowding, bursting NHS and wants to control immigration. Scotland has city centre apartments lying empty, houses for sale for less than £30k, wait weeks to get a tradesman out, farming and hospitality roles needing filled etc.

 

[millikins]

So the 5 out of 11 where England didn't get the Govt it voted for is o.k?

 

[alainax]

So the 5 out of 11 where England didn't get the Govt it voted for is o.k?

England did as Scotland voted the same way. I was saying out of the 11 times since 1970, Scotland voted for something else but of course England has the majority.

Of the times where Scotland has had an influence it has been minimal (0.2%) tipping the scales for example.

 

[alainax]

 

[millikins]

Does anyone other than me wonder how much Nicola Sturgeon actually wants independence for Scotland or whether she's taking the Scots for a right royal ride?

Politicians like power more than they like principles, she currently has that. She is many things but stupid isn't one of them. As things stand she is a big fish (no pun intended!) in a small pond with a devolved parliament and a hefty presence in Westminster. If Scotland were independent and joined the EU tomorrow (forget for a moment any obstacles to that), she would be a minnow with a small poor country and little influence in Europe and none at all in England.
The SNP do not have a good record in government as regards schools and hospitals, every time these unpleasant subjects are raised she starts demanding a referendum. And until now the tactic has worked, she threatens to split the U.K, lo and behold, Westminster caves and gives Scotland more power without demanding the end of the Barnet formula.
I think it highly likely that Theresa May will agree to another referendum but will do so on her terms and use it to crush the SNP, precisely as she has called this general election to crush Labour.

 

[millikins]

I have never voted Labour but I have had the Government I didn't vote for for just as may years. I believe it's called democracy.

 

[popsdosh]

I have never voted Labour but I have had the Government I didn't vote for for just as may years. I believe it's called democracy.

One point that hasnt been taken account of is the number of times that Scotland voting labour has forced a labour government on the rest of the UK its been more common than you think and conveniently forgotten.
In fact in 4 elections since 1950 Labour were only in power due to the Scottish labour MPs so maybe proportionally to population size they have unfair influence.

 

[ycbm]

Prime example is we need people, England has a housing shortage, over crowding, bursting NHS and wants to control immigration. Scotland has city centre apartments lying empty, houses for sale for less than £30k, wait weeks to get a tradesman out, farming and hospitality roles needing filled etc.

Controlling immigration does not mean stopping immigration.

There is no control on EU immigration now. If you can't get people to live in Scotland now, how do you think controlling immigration will change that?

I'll tell you one way. We can allow immigration of people to serve in Glasgow Costa, provided there aren't fifty Glaswegians who could do the job on the dole, and make it a condition of their work permit that they stay in Glasgow.

That would actually help you more than the current free for all.

 

[Buddy'sMum]

One point that hasnt been taken account of is the number of times that Scotland voting labour has forced a labour government on the rest of the UK its been more common than you think and conveniently forgotten.
In fact in 4 elections since 1950 Labour were only in power due to the Scottish labour MPs so maybe proportionally to population size they have unfair influence.

Which four elections are you referring to?

I make it two (1964 and autumn 1974) where Scottish Labour MPs gave Labour a majority in Westminster.

In both of those elections, Wales also returned a Labour majority so don't see how "Scotland voting Labour has forced a Labour government on the rest of the UK"?

 

[popsdosh]

Which four elections are you referring to?

I make it two (1964 and autumn 1974) where Scottish Labour MPs gave Labour a majority in Westminster.

In both of those elections, Wales also returned a Labour majority so don't see how "Scotland voting Labour has forced a Labour government on the rest of the UK"?

1950 , 64 , and two in 74.
As I have said before the seats you have is slightly better than the average in uk with regards population what do you want is your own parliament not enough with a more than generous budget allowance from south of the border . We cant help it if the SNP are wasting it away.

 

[Buddy'sMum]

1950 , 64 , and two in 74.
As I have said before the seats you have is slightly better than the average in uk with regards population what do you want is your own parliament not enough with a more than generous budget allowance from south of the border . We cant help it if the SNP are wasting it away.

According to this article, not so in 1950 and not really in spring 1974:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/gen...ns-where-Scotland-decided-who-ran-the-UK.html

 

[Judgemental]

Ms Sturgeon certainly scuppered her independence extravaganza, by saying that Winter Fuel Payments are to continue to all recipients in Scotland, irrespective of their wealth.

She went on to say, but the UK government has to pay the bill.

Independence should be substituted with INTER-DEPENDENCE.

 

[Buddy'sMum]

Ms Sturgeon certainly scuppered her independence extravaganza, by saying that Winter Fuel Payments are to continue to all recipients in Scotland, irrespective of their wealth.

She went on to say, but the UK government has to pay the bill.

Independence should be substituted with INTER-DEPENDENCE.

Despite the anti-SNP spin the Express are trying to put on this, it was, in fact, your beloved Mrs May who announced that Scottish pensioners would keep winter fuel payments

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...-theresa-may-joins-ruth-davidson-urge-labour/

 

[Snuffles]

But Scotland has control of their welfare spending so it would be up to them anyway.
Something else that the Scots will get that the English dont, like free prescriptions, tuition fees ,elderly care etc. Wonder if they would still get it if they voted to leave the UK.

 

[Buddy'sMum]

But Scotland has control of their welfare spending so it would be up to them anyway.

Actually, winter fuel payments have not yet been devolved (due to be in 2020)

 

[ycbm]

Actually, winter fuel payments have not yet been devolved (due to be in 2020)

It's clear that Sturgeon has made the decision to keep winter fuel payments and May is going to allow her to do that. What possible difference does it make who actually said it?

It will just be another way that English taxes are used to give the Scots something that the rest of the UK doesn't have. Enjoy.

 

[millikins]

Despite the anti-SNP spin the Express are trying to put on this, it was, in fact, your beloved Mrs May who announced that Scottish pensioners would keep winter fuel payments

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...-theresa-may-joins-ruth-davidson-urge-labour/

My understanding of this article is that WFP have already been devolved and both Nicola Sturgeon and Ruth Davidson have said it will not be means tested, Theresa May responded that many welfare payments are devolved to the Scottish Government.

 

[Buddy'sMum]

My understanding of this article is that WFP have already been devolved and both Nicola Sturgeon and Ruth Davidson have said it will not be means tested, Theresa May responded that many welfare payments are devolved to the Scottish Government.

Winter fuel payments have not yet been devolved - they are one of a number of benefits which are due to be devolved in 2020:
http://www.itv.com/news/2017-05-19/...to-no-means-testing-of-winter-fuel-allowance/
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ent...-our-older-people_uk_59203429e4b03b485cb1e534
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-37976223