pistolpete
Well-Known Member
Don’t think they live out. More likely get an hour or two turn out heavily booted and rugged. Hardly ‘natural’ but better than most!
Ugly Dressage
- Thread starter horsesense
- Start date
EternalVetBills
Well-Known Member
I remember Carl saying in an interview a couple of years ago (will see if I can find it), that the younger horses live out almost 24/7 other than a couple of hours during the day to work. The higher level horses Utopia, Valegro, etc. tend to be in overnight when they're actively competing as he said they get a bit flat when out overnight, but they have them out for as much of the day as possible, and when they're not properly working, they have 24/7 too.
He also mentioned a previous GP horse he had that had to live out 24/7 else he was too hot, but I can't remember which one it was.
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
Imhotep is not blessed with a good neck what he has is an amazing rhythm that carries him through he can collect and is clearly stronger than the last time I watched him.It doesn't help that both Imhotep and Everdale have the worst neck conformation (which clearly Everdale passed on to his son) which really emphasises when they are tight in the neck. CDJ loves a rock hard contact she even had it with Valegro.
What was shocking to me for what is supposed to be the top level grand prix was the amount of horses on the forehand
I don’t see undesirable tension in Imhotep to me he looks confident more so because he is now stronger , I assume is what people mean by tension is stress .
He is of course in considerable muscle tension to maintain that degree of collection .
Everdale I can of course see that Everdale is an extremely handsome horse but for me he misses that bulgy stallion neck and the BTV spoils the whole look .
Disclaimer, they all ride much better than I do and all the horses at that level are amazing individuals.
coblets
Well-Known Member
MurphysMinder
Well-Known Member
In the clip Carl shared yes they had rugs on, but no boots, which I thought was surprising and quite brave, but nice to see.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
Another way of saying that might be that the horse's turnout is deliberately restricted for no other reason than to maintain a level of energy (stress, mental tension? ) that is required to win at top level.
.
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
Valegro would have been like a whale if he was living out all the time .He always looked fat for the work he did .
Blue the cob finds living out very tiring in winter if he was working harder I would need to stable him to get the best out of him .
Sky is a busy horse but again he would be better living in if he’s working hard he’s more focused without too much badness in field .
Living out does effect how many horses feel in the work Blue certainly prefers to be stabled half the time .
Mine would all prefer being stabled atm .
Horses at the highest level need to rest a lot and for many that’s easier done inside .
Blue the cob finds living out very tiring in winter if he was working harder I would need to stable him to get the best out of him .
Sky is a busy horse but again he would be better living in if he’s working hard he’s more focused without too much badness in field .
Living out does effect how many horses feel in the work Blue certainly prefers to be stabled half the time .
Mine would all prefer being stabled atm .
Horses at the highest level need to rest a lot and for many that’s easier done inside .
paddy555
Well-Known Member
and those are acceptable for what is basically the rider's enjoyment and/or desire to win?
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
If horses muscles are not in a degree of tension they would lying in a heap and so would you , contraction and extension of the muscles system is what keeps us moving there’s nothing unnatural about it .
When a horse has job to do we manage so they feel best it’s not necessarily an evil nasty thing to do .
When a horse has job to do we manage so they feel best it’s not necessarily an evil nasty thing to do .
Last edited:
Sandstone1
Well-Known Member
The harsh truth for most people who own horses to ride and compete is that they are kept in a way that suits the rider and the land they have available. Is it right we do that? That is a massive question that goes along with should we ride and use horses in the way we do?
Most people who keep horses on livery will stable part of the time.
Most people who keep horses on livery will stable part of the time.
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
It suits me to have my horses out all the time apart from about I would say three a day at moment my horses would much prefer to be in more .i have had them in a few nights this winter because the weather was too extreme
I have decided that’s how they live atm because it suits me because I want them losing weight and I can leave them out with no forage easier than I can stand them in with no forage .
Theres nothing wrong with a good stable on a nice yard .
I have decided that’s how they live atm because it suits me because I want them losing weight and I can leave them out with no forage easier than I can stand them in with no forage .
Theres nothing wrong with a good stable on a nice yard .
pistolpete
Well-Known Member
Just been stalking Carls page and they are indeed out overnight in the summer at least. I take it back!
SEL
Well-Known Member
I saw the interview where he talked about turnout. Unless his land floods then very hot horses like Pete are out 24:7 - just in for work. Valegro got too fat with too much grass (my cobs have something in common with an olympic medal winner at last 
). For the others it depended on personality, work etc. I think they genuinely try and give them as much turnout as possible and they're all hacked so not drilled to death.
My littlest cob goes off the boil living out 24:7 in winter. She's much better stabled overnight but I need mine to live out as a herd so I accept she goes flat - so I sympathise with needing them in for a period of time to get the best out of them. If she was hunting she'd have to be stabled the night before.
). For the others it depended on personality, work etc. I think they genuinely try and give them as much turnout as possible and they're all hacked so not drilled to death.My littlest cob goes off the boil living out 24:7 in winter. She's much better stabled overnight but I need mine to live out as a herd so I accept she goes flat - so I sympathise with needing them in for a period of time to get the best out of them. If she was hunting she'd have to be stabled the night before.
Old school
Well-Known Member
The dressage performances that we do like are being recognised on this thread. By default what is not liked is also acknowledged. That is the step by step way we can all help improve equine welfare.
I went to the cattle mart to meet a friend. I dislike the way they constantly beat the animals into, around and out of the sales ring. By the argument of some of the cabal of permanent posters here, I am only entitled to be critical of this behaviour if I own cattle, and probably would have to have at least 1000 head of them to be justified in making a comment.
Well done OP in putting up the opening post in this thread.
I went to the cattle mart to meet a friend. I dislike the way they constantly beat the animals into, around and out of the sales ring. By the argument of some of the cabal of permanent posters here, I am only entitled to be critical of this behaviour if I own cattle, and probably would have to have at least 1000 head of them to be justified in making a comment.
Well done OP in putting up the opening post in this thread.
Glitter's fun
Well-Known Member
I get your point about the dressage & I agree with you.
I don't want to derail the thread, we are discussing dressage but as a cattle farmer I don't want your example to just go past uncommented on. You don't say what country you were in but what you describe at the cattle mart you visited is not an accepted norm, or even legal in a lot of places. Where I am no one employed in, or selling at the mart is allowed to carry a stick. Just leaving that here. Back to dressage--
AdorableAlice
Well-Known Member
A slightly different view is that the elite end of the sport have produced and educated horses to the point that there is no more that can be physically taken from the horse. We have of course, honed and refined some specific breeds to find the work easier than other breeds might.
Eventing is now all about skinnies, accuracy and distances that need ultimate obedience from a horse that is remote controlled by the rider and not encouraged to think for itself anymore. Dressage has changed a lot too, it is not that many years ago that double canter pirouettes were unheard of. The amount of time spent in piaffe and passage is much increased to the point that the movements put huge and unnatural strain on joints and ligaments. I understand they are natural movements for the horse, my Shire X can do all of them when suitably excited (this morning that was moving his fence for more grazing, a very impressive piaffe was seen for a few seconds !), but no horse, willingly, happily and naturally maintains these intense movements for lengthy periods of time.
The course builders can only build to the physical limit of the horse, so technical questions become evermore complex. Floorplans for freestyle dressage become evermore intense, both to the point of asking for the impossible from the horse. Long distance chasing is no different, there is a limit to how far a horse can keep galloping and in my humble opinion I think we have taken horses to limit in all disciplines now at elite level.
Eventing is now all about skinnies, accuracy and distances that need ultimate obedience from a horse that is remote controlled by the rider and not encouraged to think for itself anymore. Dressage has changed a lot too, it is not that many years ago that double canter pirouettes were unheard of. The amount of time spent in piaffe and passage is much increased to the point that the movements put huge and unnatural strain on joints and ligaments. I understand they are natural movements for the horse, my Shire X can do all of them when suitably excited (this morning that was moving his fence for more grazing, a very impressive piaffe was seen for a few seconds !), but no horse, willingly, happily and naturally maintains these intense movements for lengthy periods of time.
The course builders can only build to the physical limit of the horse, so technical questions become evermore complex. Floorplans for freestyle dressage become evermore intense, both to the point of asking for the impossible from the horse. Long distance chasing is no different, there is a limit to how far a horse can keep galloping and in my humble opinion I think we have taken horses to limit in all disciplines now at elite level.
rextherobber
Well-Known Member
I've seen him quoted as saying something along the lines of lying in bed listening to them re-enacting the Grand National, so I guess they're out overnight?
coblets
Well-Known Member
Well done for putting up an opening post that most people agree with and gets discussed a lot, and then saying that they have no intention of discussing the topic any further?
CanteringCarrot
Well-Known Member
Re imhotep:
www.chronofhorse.com
“He lives in a field all night long because it’s the only way,” said the Olympic gold medalist. “He lives with a friend. That’s how he lives. He’s happy, and he’s much easier. It’s good for his mentality.”
Imhotep's Outdoor Life - The Chronicle of the Horse
www.chronofhorse.com
“He lives in a field all night long because it’s the only way,” said the Olympic gold medalist. “He lives with a friend. That’s how he lives. He’s happy, and he’s much easier. It’s good for his mentality.”
stormox
Well-Known Member
Yes I agree. But when you get to the limit there will always be one exceptional horse and rider who can exceed it. Then everyone else has to beat that - It's just the way competitions work
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
He’s a lucky dressage horse
Re imhotep:
Imhotep's Outdoor Life - The Chronicle of the Horse
“He lives in a field all night long because it’s the only way,” said the Olympic gold medalist. “He lives with a friend. That’s how he lives. He’s happy, and he’s much easier. It’s good for his mentality.”
CanteringCarrot
Well-Known Member
Some level of tension is needed, especially in the upper levels of the sport. There's a whole 'nother discussion we could get into about negative and positive tension, but some level of tension is needed. Not all tension is bad.
I prefer horses to live out, but I can settle for half and half (in and out). Sure it's selfish (as is nearly every aspect of horse keeping and riding, really) to keep them in a way that produces more energy, but it's also not a bad thing for your athletic partner to have the energy they need in order to do the job.
I prefer horses to live out, but I can settle for half and half (in and out). Sure it's selfish (as is nearly every aspect of horse keeping and riding, really) to keep them in a way that produces more energy, but it's also not a bad thing for your athletic partner to have the energy they need in order to do the job.
eahotson
Well-Known Member
Well said Some would say we have already exceeded it.
catkin
Well-Known Member
I agree, and I wonder if this is why it may be getting harder to watch. If every last scrap of technical ability and energy is being used is there now no longer any capacity for joie de vivre/artistry/brilliance/presence, call it what you will, in the performance?
splashgirl45
Lurcher lover
Imhotep definitely does and some of the youngsters , not sure about the rest but they do get turnout just not sure how much
Time for Tea
Well-Known Member
An interesting view which reinforces something I have felt instinctively for some time.
Because horse sport naturally follows the elite element, how much of this technical requirement has filtered down to the general competition level, to make it more difficult for the average rider? I dont really know, but I do remember a fellow pony club mum saying that her older daughter had been able to do senior teams at horse trials as they called it then, with a 14.2 Welsh cob. Big pony club, lots of contenders. By the time her younger daughter arrived at the same point, the cob was no good. No good for teams. No, the senior team had to have horses, good horses, and spend a lot of time training as well. No doubt it did their horsemanship good, but it seemed a shame. On the other hand, I suppose they all had to develop and pony club had to move with the times with its standards in order to fit in with the modern competition world
Apologies, I’ve moved some way off the elite dressage theme. I was musing.
AdorableAlice
Well-Known Member
And that is when we see stressed, anxious horses with fear on their faces. The vets see injuries, the ground juries see exhausted horses and the watching public see perceived cruelty.
The exceptional horses have always been around over the decades, depending on how old you are, some names are legendary. However, the majority of those old legends would not be able to jump the modern tracks we see today. Maybe the question is, ‘what is acceptable to ask a horse to do’ in terms of physical and mental ability. I think it has already been asked and exceeded in all elite equine sport.
AShetlandBitMeOnce
Well-Known Member
I think also technicality is being pursued to the detriment of what the sport is supposed to be. The French male rider at LIHS doing his canter (I think, from memory) half pass into piaffe then back again across the arena whilst technically 'impressive' didn't flow, didn't have any harmony and wasn't a pleasant thing to do for the horse from the way it looked to the viewer. It looked forced and choppy to me - but he would have gotten good marks for it being difficult - but that isn't what the test is supposed to be about 100%
blitznbobs
Well-Known Member
I am sure all my horses would be tense if under those kind of conditions- it’s not something you can emulate at home and takes time to achieve relaxation in those type of environments - considering how hot these horses are I’m often suprised they stay in the arena at all
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
This is a very good point I can remember watching Edward Gal on undercover at Greenwich in the team final I could not work out how they held it half together the atmosphere was wild the crowd knew that gold was out there for the home team the adrenaline was hanging over the stadium you could smell it .I have never experienced anything half like it before .
It was an incredible experience but for the less experienced horses it was a lot to cope with in fact for any of the horses it was a lot .