Ugly Dressage

[ycbm]

And then that raises the question of whether it's right to put horses in such situations, if they are so difficult to cope with. These days, I'm on a no as the answer to that one.
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[Ceifer]

The harsh truth for most people who own horses to ride and compete is that they are kept in a way that suits the rider and the land they have available. Is it right we do that? That is a massive question that goes along with should we ride and use horses in the way we do?
Most people who keep horses on livery will stable part of the time.

The answer to that is probably not. Ethics are a tricky thing. In the western world mostly we don’t require horses for ‘work’ anymore. We ask horses to do unnatural things every day, lifestyle and ridden to suit ourselves.
It’s up to us as individuals where we draw our lines.

We hold top level riders of most disciplines in high esteem and consider them the pinnacle of sportsmanship and horse management. The truth is often far from it. These rider do what they need to do to win and they justify the means by the end result.

Horses have never been cheap but now they are uber expensive and most pro riders have the added pressure of owners it’s the horses that suffer.

I compete and my horse goes out daily in winter and overnight in summer. My dressage trainer is horrified. Her horses haven’t been out since October and go on the Walker instead. She won’t take the risk of injury.

 

[Goldenstar]

My horses are out as much as possible
But there’s no denying there’s a degree of risk involved
However stabling has a degree of risk they are just different risks.

 

[paddi22]

we have a new classical-style trainer coming to the yard, he said he's never been busier. he can't get over the amount of new people contacting him for lesson, before that he said it was a niche group of people that were interested. I wonder will that have an impact down the line?

 

[little_critter]

I think also technicality is being pursued to the detriment of what the sport is supposed to be. The French male rider at LIHS doing his canter (I think, from memory) half pass into piaffe then back again across the arena whilst technically 'impressive' didn't flow, didn't have any harmony and wasn't a pleasant thing to do for the horse from the way it looked to the viewer. It looked forced and choppy to me - but he would have gotten good marks for it being difficult - but that isn't what the test is supposed to be about 100%

In contrast I did rather like seeing extended walk on the short diagonal, to piaffe, to extended walk again (can’t remember who did it)
I liked it because the relaxation in the walk continued into the piaffe.

 

[SEL]

And then that raises the question of whether it's right to put horses in such situations, if they are so difficult to cope with. These days, I'm on a no as the answer to that one.
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But even at lower levels we're putting horses in unusual situations and asking them to build their resilience. My first warm up on a youngster back in May and the test that followed were high stress, tense and with unplanned manoeuvres - roll forward to September and he was fine. Charlotte has commented on how much Imhotep has improved the more he's seen and no doubt that will continue.

A lady near me produces working hunters and the first trip to HOYS is always a trip to the unknown - but the following year they know what's coming & crack on.

 

[ycbm]

But even at lower levels we're putting horses in unusual situations and asking them to build their resilience. My first warm up on a youngster back in May and the test that followed were high stress, tense and with unplanned manoeuvres - roll forward to September and he was fine. Charlotte has commented on how much Imhotep has improved the more he's seen and no doubt that will continue.

A lady near me produces working hunters and the first trip to HOYS is always a trip to the unknown - but the following year they know what's coming & crack on.

That doesn't really change anything about our rights to put sentient animals through such stress for our own fun though, does it?
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[paddy555]

This is a very good point I can remember watching Edward Gal on undercover at Greenwich in the team final I could not work out how they held it half together the atmosphere was wild the crowd knew that gold was out there for the home team the adrenaline was hanging over the stadium you could smell it .I have never experienced anything half like it before .
It was an incredible experience but for the less experienced horses it was a lot to cope with in fact for any of the horses it was a lot .

so the question is should they even have to? what benefit is there to the horse? should we even worry about the horse (other than him going lame etc as that will cost us money)

is the horse any different to a bike say. Is it ethical to breed/produce a "hot" horse who is going to be stressed because his rider wants to compete at these levels?

And that is when we see stressed, anxious horses with fear on their faces. The vets see injuries, the ground juries see exhausted horses and the watching public see perceived cruelty.

AA has put it far better than I have. I struggle seeing fearful horses.

 

[Ceifer]

we have a new classical-style trainer coming to the yard, he said he's never been busier. he can't get over the amount of new people contacting him for lesson, before that he said it was a niche group of people that were interested. I wonder will that have an impact down the line?

Well there’s good Classical and there’s bad classical.

Kirsten Alexa Hansen shares very good examples of classical riders on her facebook page but I highly doubt it’s going become mainstream unfortunately.

On the other end of the spectrum without naming names is the popular Classical instructor who just used to advocate sticking everything in a Pelham and doing French Classical baucher flexions. Thankfully they seem too busy sharing conspiracy theories on Facebook and slagging other riders off to be too much influence these days.

 

[paddy555]

I don't find the dressage referred to in the opening post at all pleasant to watch nor a lot of the other activities we make horses undertake in order that we win but this horse seems to be a lot happier. Maybe he is even enjoying it.

 

[NinjaPony]

I think that with the freestyle, it would really help if they bumped up some of the marks for artistry and expression. Some of the music choices are just dire, really boring and forgettable. It makes a huge difference when the floor plan and music feel coherent and like they are enhancing the horse, and you could achieve more competition in that aspect without having to pile on more difficulty. I’d like to see creativity rewarded more highly, with a greater emphasis on the overall picture.

 

[splashgirl45]

I don't find the dressage referred to in the opening post at all pleasant to watch nor a lot of the other activities we make horses undertake in order that we win but this horse seems to be a lot happier. Maybe he is even enjoying it.

Did you watch Becky Moodys test, that was lovely and nice to watch IMO, a couple of the others were ok but some of them were very unhappy horses

 

[bonny]

I don't find the dressage referred to in the opening post at all pleasant to watch nor a lot of the other activities we make horses undertake in order that we win but this horse seems to be a lot happier. Maybe he is even enjoying it.

He’s done an awful lot of schooling with a bridle on to get to that point though.

 

[eahotson]

An interesting view which reinforces something I have felt instinctively for some time.

Because horse sport naturally follows the elite element, how much of this technical requirement has filtered down to the general competition level, to make it more difficult for the average rider? I dont really know, but I do remember a fellow pony club mum saying that her older daughter had been able to do senior teams at horse trials as they called it then, with a 14.2 Welsh cob. Big pony club, lots of contenders. By the time her younger daughter arrived at the same point, the cob was no good. No good for teams. No, the senior team had to have horses, good horses, and spend a lot of time training as well. No doubt it did their horsemanship good, but it seemed a shame. On the other hand, I suppose they all had to develop and pony club had to move with the times with its standards in order to fit in with the modern competition world
Apologies, I’ve moved some way off the elite dressage theme. I was musing.

Sad though.Not everyone can afford the 'good horses"and expensive trainers.Horse sport is going to become only for the wealthy.

 

[DiNozzo]

Sad though.Not everyone can afford the 'good horses"and expensive trainers.Horse sport is going to become only for the wealthy.

Horse ‘sport’ has always been for the wealthy.

With regards to stress, it depends on to what level and how often they display that stress. I also want to caveat this with, yes, there are combinations that I find unacceptable.

Everyone, and I think everything (animals included) face stress whilst learning. Provided that stress reduces, like Imhotep’s seems to be doing, I don’t have an issue with animals displaying some stress. I don’t think an unhorsey audience would struggle to understand the concept either.

Now, horses that are incredibly stressed all the time are very obviously a different matter.

 

[eahotson]

Horse ‘sport’ has always been for the wealthy.

With regards to stress, it depends on to what level and how often they display that stress. I also want to caveat this with, yes, there are combinations that I find unacceptable.

Everyone, and I think everything (animals included) face stress whilst learning. Provided that stress reduces, like Imhotep’s seems to be doing, I don’t have an issue with animals displaying some stress. I don’t think an unhorsey audience would struggle to understand the concept either.

Now, horses that are incredibly stressed all the time are very obviously a different matter.

Well there

Horse ‘sport’ has always been for the wealthy.

With regards to stress, it depends on to what level and how often they display that stress. I also want to caveat this with, yes, there are combinations that I find unacceptable.

Everyone, and I think everything (animals included) face stress whilst learning. Provided that stress reduces, like Imhotep’s seems to be doing, I don’t have an issue with animals displaying some stress. I don’t think an unhorsey audience would struggle to understand the concept either.

Now, horses that are incredibly stressed all the time are very obviously a different matter.

Trail blazers seem to offer a lot to the average horse or rider.Riders have choices,their horses don't.

 

[Boulty]

Do Carl and Charlotte's horses live out full time? That would be more than unusual for horses of that class.
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I think he has the odd one that does (Barney used to I think?) but to my knowledge they have daily turnout but are still stabled part of the time? Still a damn site better than what a lot of dressage horses competing at that level are allowed. I like that they’re turned out with friends too

 

[CanteringCarrot]

The problem is that we involved an animal in something competitive. Sort of doomed to fail from the start. We know that some people are extremely competitive and will go to various lengths to win. Toss an animal in there and you likely have a recipe for poor animal welfare at the cost of a win or being competitive.

This is a very selfish sport and almost everything we do is for us and out of certain selfish desires. I struggle with it some days and think about it quite a bit.

I remember watching a competition and looking around and seeing people and horses looking miserable, stressed, and/or otherwise forced to be there doing xyz and all I could think was, why?!

It's as if we always have something to prove.

 

[paddy555]

He’s done an awful lot of schooling with a bridle on to get to that point though.

and the ugly ones no doubt have also done a lot of schooling with a bridle. Just that the link I posted appears to be a happy and calm horse enjoying itself.
Many of the ugly ones just look so stressed and so over bridled.

I didn't chose that link specifically because there was no bridle, I know nothing about the rider. I chose it because it was a trained horse that was a pleasing spectacle to the public and it didn't look stressed nor forced.

With regards to stress, it depends on to what level and how often they display that stress.

Everyone, and I think everything (animals included) face stress whilst learning.

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but humans have a choice about learning and the more they want to compete in whatever situation then very likely the more stress.
Animals don't have a choice. We put them into stressful situations for our own ends, our pleasure, our own egos to win. There are limits and, IMHO, we have gone well past the limits in welfare terms.

The problem is that we involved an animal in something competitive. Sort of doomed to fail from the start. We know that some people are extremely competitive and will go to various lengths to win. Toss an animal in there and you likely have a recipe for poor animal welfare at the cost of a win or being competitive.

This is a very selfish sport and almost everything we do is for us and out of certain selfish desires. I struggle with it some days and think about it quite a bit.

I remember watching a competition and looking around and seeing people and horses looking miserable, stressed, and/or otherwise forced to be there doing xyz and all I could think was, why?!

It's as if we always have something to prove.

this


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[teapot]

And then that raises the question of whether it's right to put horses in such situations, if they are so difficult to cope with. These days, I'm on a no as the answer to that one.
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See also the dog agility at the London International - does dog agility get the crowds you find there at dog-only events?

 

[oldie48]

I only saw the Freestyle but I thought the quality of riding was better than in previous years. Without wishing to get into a fight with anyone, I think there's a difference in what most people see and what most judges are looking for. As a spectator I get an overall impression of how the test is going, I might even know that having a mistake in a particular movement will be expensive because of the coefficient, however, I don't know which transitions are marked separately or are included in the movement and I'm not skilled enough to know how this will all add up to final score. and I suspect most spectators don't either. CJ-D's GP had marks from 4-10, Becky's were 6.5-8, Lewis Carrier's were also 6.5 -8 but the clustering of the marks were very different. If you think a combination has been marked unfairly, have a look at the marking it usually (but not always) tells a story. I get a bit cross when people rubbish judging, there were 5 judges and they will all get a different view of a movement and at least 4 of them won't see the same movement as we see it on the TV. We all like different types of horses, I rather like the short coupled Imhotep type but anyone who has ridden a range of horses will know they all come with different challenges which will show up as they go up the levels. If you don't like "modern" dressage no one is holding a gun to your head to make you watch it, tension in horses is pretty natural, if you don't like it, don't ride horses, if you do want to ride horses then learn to deal with it and help your horse to deal with it. Imhotep was at his first big show, how many of you could take your horse into that arena and come out on a loose rein. Not many I suspect.

 

[stormox]

Reading these posts though you would assume ridden, competing horses feel stress at what they're being asked to do.
Maybe they do - but is it necessarily bad and un-natural?
Horses living a natural life in the wild must feel plenty of stress - where to find available food, water, is that lion or wild dog going to eat me, how do I get across that canyon, where can I find a mate.....
Is 10 mins of stress in an arena really that awful?

 

[Time for Tea]

Sad though.Not everyone can afford the 'good horses"and expensive trainers.Horse sport is going to become only for the wealthy.

It is sad. And horse sport should not be only for the wealthy at pony club level. It is difficult to stop it though! Some attempt is made by means of eligibility rules. And yes it always has been for the wealthy at advanced levels.

 

[eahotson]

I only saw the Freestyle but I thought the quality of riding was better than in previous years. Without wishing to get into a fight with anyone, I think there's a difference in what most people see and what most judges are looking for. As a spectator I get an overall impression of how the test is going, I might even know that having a mistake in a particular movement will be expensive because of the coefficient, however, I don't know which transitions are marked separately or are included in the movement and I'm not skilled enough to know how this will all add up to final score. and I suspect most spectators don't either. CJ-D's GP had marks from 4-10, Becky's were 6.5-8, Lewis Carrier's were also 6.5 -8 but the clustering of the marks were very different. If you think a combination has been marked unfairly, have a look at the marking it usually (but not always) tells a story. I get a bit cross when people rubbish judging, there were 5 judges and they will all get a different view of a movement and at least 4 of them won't see the same movement as we see it on the TV. We all like different types of horses, I rather like the short coupled Imhotep type but anyone who has ridden a range of horses will know they all come with different challenges which will show up as they go up the levels. If you don't like "modern" dressage no one is holding a gun to your head to make you watch it, tension in horses is pretty natural, if you don't like it, don't ride horses, if you do want to ride horses then learn to deal with it and help your horse to deal with it. Imhotep was at his first big show, how many of you could take your horse into that arena and come out on a loose rein. Not many I suspect.

Well I started to watch it in the hopes that things had changed.I decided they hadn't so I switched off and watched something else.

 

[ycbm]

Reading these posts though you would assume ridden, competing horses feel stress at what they're being asked to do.
Maybe they do - but is it necessarily bad and un-natural?
Horses living a natural life in the wild must feel plenty of stress - where to find available food, water, is that lion or wild dog going to eat me, how do I get across that canyon, where can I find a mate.....
Is 10 mins of stress in an arena really that awful?

We can alleviate the natural stresses for horses. Should we instead replace them with others so that we can have fun or win prizes? You'll be able to tell that I am currently very, very conflicted about our right to impact these wonderful animals lives negatively, for our fun.

Why don't we give elephant rides in zoos any more? What harm did it do?
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[blitznbobs]

We can alleviate the natural stresses for horses. Should we instead replace them with others so that we can have fun or win prizes? You'll be able to tell that I am currently very, very conflicted about our right to impact these wonderful animals lives negatively, for our fun.

Why don't we give elephant rides in zoos any more? What harm did it do?
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Ahh well if thats the case we should turn them all out on the moors … but then they would have the stress of being in pain and not having their injuries cared for, carrying parasites and starving occasionally. Stress is a natural part of life and having no stress is actually unbelievably bad for you. Literally if you have no stress mammals wounds don’t heal… so what level of stress is acceptable and what level isn’t ?

 

[coblets]

Stress can be distress or eustress also.

 

[copper72]

As with all negative sentiment and criticism of what we see that we disagree with in the horse world - if you don’t like it, show us what it should look like. Get on your horse, do those same movements and demonstrate how it best done.

I don’t think anyone sets out to ride in an ugly manner or harm their horse, but they are doing the best they can with the knowledge and resources they have.

My hubby (who is a trainer) has a favourite saying when people start criticising others. “They are out there doing it, you are not”. ”Show us how you would do it”.

Apologies - I’ve not not been clear enough. The point is not about whether it is right, wrong or otherwise. It’s about getting people to hear themselves bagging out others without an active or demonstrative action in place to show what good looks like.

With respect, it's not up to the OP to offer solutions to this issue. As I see it he/she? was simply expressing their disapproval, and concern for equine welfare. The post has rightly sparked debate. Human athletes choose to put extreme demands on their bodies and minds. Horses do not. Surely it's up the FEI to do what you are asking of the OP?

 

[Sossigpoker]

Ahh well if thats the case we should turn them all out on the moors … but then they would have the stress of being in pain and not having their injuries cared for, carrying parasites and starving occasionally. Stress is a natural part of life and having no stress is actually unbelievably bad for you. Literally if you have no stress mammals wounds don’t heal… so what level of stress is acceptable and what level isn’t ?

But creating stress merely for the benefit of a human is just exploitation.
Like ycbm I increasingly question the ethics of horse riding let alone the top level competition scene.

 

[paddy555]

Ahh well if thats the case we should turn them all out on the moors … but then they would have the stress of being in pain and not having their injuries cared for, carrying parasites and starving occasionally. Stress is a natural part of life and having no stress is actually unbelievably bad for you. Literally if you have no stress mammals wounds don’t heal… so what level of stress is acceptable and what level isn’t ?

I live in the middle of the moors. Each day I walk through, ride through or drive around these ponies on the moor. They have a far less stressful life than the ones we are discussing on here. Perhaps the difference is these semi ferals have only the stress of being a horse. ie the natural things a horse has to do ie find food, water, mate, give birth etc.
The other stress ie high level competitions to win prizes for their owners is a whole different stress ball game.