Vet Bashing

[Winters100]

Speaking personally I am really grateful to my vet, and I really appreciate that it is not an easy job being called out at all hours. Tonight I had to have him out to see one of mine who appeared to be in the early stages of colic. He arrived within 20 minutes, treated her, stayed for a good while to see that she was fine and then messaged me at 1am to ask if I thought he would be needed again tonight. Quite honestly I would not really like a job where I might get an urgent call at 9pm on a cold Friday night and I am always very thankful that he cares for my animals so well.

 

[southerncomfort]

I was with a well known chain of vets here in West Yorkshire.

The vets themselves were amazing but the fees started creeping up (£120 for routine dental visit for example). It came to the point where I simply couldn't afford to stay with them any more. I'd also had a chat with a farmer friend who said he'd felt pressured on more than one occasion to pursue treatments both for his sheep and dogs that he thought probably futile but didn't want to be painted as the 'heartless farmer. Invariably he would end up losing the animal anyway.

As I say the vets themselves were outstanding so I wonder if they themselves had pressure put on them from management.

I joined a much smaller local equine practice who are also really good and do everything they can to keep costs down for owners including zone days, set price dental visits etc.

But the care is still exceptional and their is a good level of trust between vets and clients.

When my old girl started having seizures the vet very kindly said that we could try some steroids or other treatments if I wanted but that in all honesty it would not have any bearing on what was a likely brain tumour and that she would ultimately still deteriorate, and probably quite quickly.

I really appreciated her honesty and kindness, and that she didn't try and talk me in to trying any treatments.

 

[baran]

But, Amymay, if you did not jump through all the right hoops in the right order demanded by the insurance company you could have found yourself paying out for the premiums but still not getting any payback.

And yes, animals are left suffering while owners wait to get the go ahead for treatment/PTS from the insurance company.

But that is the owner's decision. I would never wait for the insurance company to give me permission to put an animal down if I deemed it necessary. Not plugging NFU but I have found them very sensible and pragmatic on this issue. They have also paid for all the cost of tests when the end verdict was headshaking with no known cause.

 

[baran]

I have no issue with vet charges, large or small animal though I moved the dog's vet after they joined a group for OOH, meaning I'd have to drive 20 miles and pay about £125 just to be seen, before any treatment, a call out charge and a consultation fee.
My current horse vets have started a new wheeze during lockdown which they appear to be going to continue. They want payment in advance, not for a routine booked visit like vaccination where costs are standard but for all treatment. So during lockdown my small pony was being treated for laminitis, I called the vet when she had a set back and they wanted £200, they told me it was because their suppliers had reduced stock, I refused to pay in advance for unknown, un invoiced treatment. I'm cynical enough to think if the bill was actually £175 pre CV, they'd find some added extras to justify their £200 fee. I didn't change practice as I very much like the vet who was treating her but I think I will now as it appears to be their new method of billing. Is it even legal?

And are you aware how many vets are finding themselves with clients who can't or won't pay, blaming the current economic climate? Bad debts are soaring according to our vet! He still has to pay his staff, rates, electricity ..... And no staff were put on furlough as they are a large animal practice and still had to visit farms and slaughter houses.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Of course it is always the owner’s decision as to when to authorise PTS or to commence a course of treatment. But if the ins co then decline the claim, the owner is left with bills, maybe a dead horse and no payout.

This can and does happen.

 

[canteron]

All this makes me very happy with th my vets. There is one at the practice I won’t use for routine injections but is technically brilliant with emergencies - but there is always someone there at the end of the phone and that matters to me.

 

[SusieT]

and this is also the owners risk.. not the vets to take..

'Of course it is always the owner’s decision as to when to authorise PTS or to commence a course of treatment. But if the ins co then decline the claim, the owner is left with bills, maybe a dead horse and no payout.

This can and does happen.'

 

[Tiddlypom]

and this is also the owners risk.. not the vets to take..

Yes, I agree, that is part of the point I was making?

The risk that the vets take is that their client may find themselves without the anticipated funds to pay the bill.

On a different note, how many vets practices still send out a monthly invoice to be settled? Mine still do, with settlement expected within 14 days, but I believe that many practices now expect payment at the time of treatment, after being stung by bad payers.

 

[ester]

When I moved first appointment had to be paid for at the time, except it wasn't as everyone knows we had no mobile signal so bringing a card reader was a bit pointless.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Vet trying to ring in card details to reception with a dodgy signal?

 

[Pedantic]

Same as all professional services that people use, they will speak as "their" brain see's it, I work for myself, one customer thinks my prices are as they expect, another will say it's expensive another will say cheap, it's all in the wallet of the beholder, some vet bills do come across as a bit over the top, others sensible.

What I have learnt in 50 years of working, is that if you did the whole job free of charge, it would still be too expensive, so block them in my phone, if they ring it comes up as tight **** etc etc, I don't think vets are being singled out specifically.

 

[milliepops]

My equine practice used to request first 3 visits paid upfront and thereafter you were billed monthly. Not sure if that's the same for new clients now but that seemed fair.

 

[ester]

I totally see why they do it. Everyone laughed, vet said she was sceptical and I said I'd call them off a landline when I had access to one. With the addition that well I also live here so am not going to be too tricky to find/my land lady YO had used them forever.

 

[eggs]

I have sadly had a number of horses pts over the years. I am aware of what will and will not meet BEVA guidelines for an insurance payout but make the devision in the best interests of the horse regardless of whether the insurance will pay.

I am very pleased with my horse vet and have just paid £500 for x-rays for my puppy and never had to pay so much for horse x-rays.

Bash your vet if you have more training/experience/qualifications than them, if not accept that they are doing their best.

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

I had a just qualified vet out. She askefe what I thought was wrong - swollen udder. Diagnosed a tumour in her first visit ! Needed sending to leahurst now. Senior vet arrived it was a sting !

My late mare would still be with me if the vets had diagnosed laminitis 2 years running.
They failed to check her feet, we tried for over a year but lost the battle, now my xvets.

 

[Megan V1]

I had to take my dog to the vet last Sunday morning, she was extremely ill overnight and we knew she had problems with her seasons so was booked in to be speyed on Wednesday unfortunately she developed pyometra and had emergency surgery Sunday afternoon after it taking them four hours to stabalise her enough for anaesthetic. The operation took over three hours, she was then cared for all night and all day Monday, given antibiotics and fluids. It was touch and go for two days but we brought her home. The bill came to £2500 and I can honestly say they deserved every penny.

 

[Gingerwitch]

I have just looked at my ponies itemised bill. I found everything really reasonable but did roll my eyes at the £10.00 charge for lead role hire. Paid anyway as they did a cracking sow ear back on job and as a typical tb got a huge infection and had to have daily treatment and a tonne of drugs. I assume it was a c19 charge though but they did use his own head collar. I did leave them a box tin of quality street and se t the office staff a tin of roses as they did a great job of getting most appointments to work round me, or sent a vet nurse to hold him.

 

[Winters100]

I have just looked at my ponies itemised bill. I found everything really reasonable but did roll my eyes at the £10.00 charge for lead role hire. .

To be honest I would find a charge for leadrope hire a bit ridiculous. Like you I would probably just pay up, but seriously??

 

[Gingerwitch]

To be honest I would find a charge for leadrope hire a bit ridiculous. Like you I would probably just pay up, but seriously??

I know I needed a new lead rope too so they could have left it lol.
How is your own recovery doing ?
GW x

 

[Winters100]

I know I needed a new lead rope too so they could have left it lol.
How is your own recovery doing ?
GW x

It is going really well, thanks for asking. I was super lucky to be signed into a rehabilitation program where they do many different therapies on my hand five days a week (hydrotherapy, TENS, magnetic, occupational therapy and physiotherapy). Some of the treatment is painful, but 100% worth the pain to see the improvement. Movement is greatly improved, really beyond what I could have hoped for, so I am very happy. Ponies may soon get a shock, because for the last month I have just been bringing them in to give lunch and groom them, but I am even thinking today that I might have a little sit on one or more. I am lucky that my mare is a super schoolmistress, so the perfect pony to start with Have a good day!

 

[Nicnac]

I love my vet! He's independent and brilliant. I don't wait for insurance to say yes/no if horses need treating they need treating whether that be lameness investigation or pts. I also pay vet directly and get insurance money paid to me. If I were with a CVS owned vet practice they could wait.

One thing I don't understand with small animal practices is the use of GA. With a horse, it would be sedated for treatment but the dog vets always want to do a GA for everything however small which does push the price up significantly and, imo, unnecessarily.

 

[Redders]

I love my vet! He's independent and brilliant. I don't wait for insurance to say yes/no if horses need treating they need treating whether that be lameness investigation or pts. I also pay vet directly and get insurance money paid to me. If I were with a CVS owned vet practice they could wait.

One thing I don't understand with small animal practices is the use of GA. With a horse, it would be sedated for treatment but the dog vets always want to do a GA for everything however small which does push the price up significantly and, imo, unnecessarily.

hopefully I can explain this a bit.
sedation doesn’t cause satisfactory analgesia, and some procedures (for me this is for ear related issues, all surgery, and orthopaedic radiographs - if we aren’t able to manipulate the joint in the right position then the radiograph would not be diagnostic and then a waste of money, and it can be really painful)
There is some analgesia with *some sedative agents but it’s not enough to compete a procedure well or safely.
a general anaesthetic is far far safer - we are able to control the airways (hugely important in all breeds and species but especially so with flat face animals) if we only used sedation and an animal crashed, we would need to convert to a GA to control the airway and monitoring and the time it takes can make a huge difference to survival times.
sedation has a finite amount of time of adequate sedation to complete a procedure and this isn’t always long enough.
in large and equine, a lot is done under sedation and local anaesthetic because a)cost b) facilities and c) GA is actually more dangerous in these species due to the weight of the intestines and complications of breathing, temp regulation and risk of severe injury to animal and human on recovery.
i hope that makes sense
An example:
I diagnosed mammary carcinoma on a dog, and guidelines state I need to stage the cancer and check for mets prior to the animal undergoing a radical and invasive surgery, which means I need to radiograph the chest. I need this under a GA so I can inflate the lungs to be diagnostic and get the best images.
I explained to the owner that I could do this under sedation and it would be cheaper BUT it won’t produce the best images and therefore I am
Likely to miss a tumour if there is one, so I would prefer to do under a GA BUT so long as the owner is aware that it’s not the best, but is the best they can afford (which is fine) then I will do under sedation.

 

[Redders]

But I won’t do painful procedures under Sedation, it’s not fair on the animal because they will feel it, and it’s unpredictable - I won’t risk having an animal leap off my table after being stimulated by pain while I am exploring a lesion in its paw (or any other painful procedure) That’s just a hideous situation all round.

 

[Gamebird]

Thanks for this thread. The vet bashing really, really needs to stop. I am a vet. My husband is a vet. We have both been horse vets in the past, now small animal. When you read these stories on social media PLEASE PLEASE remember you are only hearing one side of the story.
Two vets in the UK that I know of have taken their own lives this week and the profession is facing a mental health crisis. It's about time vet fees rose to reflect the real costs and allow vets and vet nurses to be paid a decent wage commensurate with their training and expertise. But if people can't tolerate the fees now there is no hope of that.
Thank you to all of you who appreciate your vets. Sadly those who don't are probably not on this thread!

Polygon, kudos to you and your husband. I completely agree about one side of the story. I so often wish I could reply on social media with the truth when faced with these awful posts! We once had a horrid post made about our practice which was widely shared in local horse groups and caused us a lot of grief. It was along the lines of 'These vets only care about money, they care nothing for the welfare of the animals' (except longer, more ranty and more sweary than that!). What had we done? A client rang to book a 3rd flu vac for her horse. We had the temerity to ask her if she wouldn't mind paying for the 2nd vac (done 6 months previously and still unpaid!) before we came out to do the 3rd one. But of course we can't reply to her posts with that!

I’m a vet. A new one. Graduated in June.
I am small animal, everyone expected equine but I can’t cope with the owners who are convinced that I will treat their animal differently if it’s insured/not insured and I don’t agree with the yearly time limit on insurance policies forcing treatment or investigations before time limit is up. I have a scientific mind and I will want as much information available to me as possible to make a diagnosis and treatment plan going forward. When I ask if an animal is insured it is because I need to know what we can and can’t afford to do. If I can’t do diagnostics, I can’t say if I am treating the right thing. And if I do make an educated guess and I’m wrong, well, it’s me who ends up being told I got it wrong and have an upset owner with an animal who is potentially sicker as a result. And I do not want that. If animals are insured (or an owner can afford the required diagnostics) then I know I can do the absolute best for the animal. If they aren’t, well, I try my best but my eyes aren’t microscopes, my ears aren’t an ultrasound scanner, and my hands aren’t x-ray machines.
I am paid 29k. I insure all my animals and I have £25 max left over at the end of the month to spare in part because of that, and I shop in lidl and never go out.
I haven’t finished work on time once in the last six weeks. I havent had my lunch break in the last week, before that I managed to get it once or twice a week.
I get in early in order to make all the call backs needed.
None of that is paid or time given back.

Redders, my congratulations. You sound like an excellent vet, and a credit to the profession.

I rarely post on forums, but just thought I needed to reply to let the other vets on this thread know that they're not alone. If you're struggling please contact Vetlife, open up to a colleague, or even give me a PM!

Like the others, I wish I could say it gets easier. It doesn't. I've been an equine vet for over 20 years now. I am head of a small equine practice. I earn more than you Redders. Not a lot more than you however! I work over 12 hours a day, 5 days a week at the moment, with overnight on-call on top of that every second night, and all weekend (24/7) every second weekend (sometimes every third weekend). I am tired. SO tired. I am tired of losing colleagues and friends. I am tired of the abuse we are subjected to. I am tired of people who are rude to my staff, but sweetness and light when they speak to me. I am tired of people who take 6 months and hours of staff time before they will pay a £50 bill. I am tired of people who rant about you all over the internet when you have no recourse to reply. I am tired of people who ring you at 7am on your first day off in three weeks for something trivial. I am tired of people of people who ring at 7am on your first day off in weeks because they forgot to get their horse vaccinated and have been turned away from a BE event and are angry so they decide to ring and shout at you. Then offer you cash to ring the BE vet and lie and say that you did vaccinate their horse so it can run after all. Some of my clients I love dearly, and am happy to count as friends. Most horses, regardless of who they belong to, I love, and would turn out at any hour of the night for. Today I cried with a client when I had to give her the bad news. I still love my job. But this job has changed. It is not the job it was when I graduated. And it is the worse for it.

It is easy to say that we must have known what it would be like, but to a student a £25k wage sounds like a fortune. I have a lot of students come to do EMS with me. Seeing practice as a student really does not give you an insight of how stressful it is when the buck stops with you. The student doesn't have the clients shouting down the phone. There is no way of knowing as a student how the stresses build up over the years. How it feels to have been on call every second night for the last twenty years of your life. I knew the wages wouldn't be amazing, but I had no way of knowing that if I had a busy week (we get paid a flat salary based on standard hours - no overtime) I would earn less per hour than my construction worker husband who does 8-4 5 days a week and doesn't have so much as an O level to his name. I never dreamed that working in a professional field I would be able to afford to keep a horse on DIY, but not to have lessons or compete!

I am so sorry that so many of you seem to have had bad experiences with your vets. I can see that it is very upsetting for you. But I would like to add that I do not know a single vet that sets out to do anything but their best. Maybe that doesn't always work out. I am truly sorry if it doesn't. But please remember before you post hurtful comments that vets are all people. And every few weeks there is one more vet who can't take it any more and pays the ultimate price. It's heartbreaking. I hope I am strong enough to keep trucking for another 20 years! All jobs are hard, I get that. But we all need to be kinder to, and more respectful of, everyone we meet.

 

[windand rain]

Good vets are wonderful worth every penny and should be paid promptly. There are a few thing that bug me and I know newly qualified vets need to learn but some could learn a thing or two from old nagsmen too. It is hard when you have a bad experience, and have had a few, not to want to rant. The trend for corporate buy outs is causing the biggest rises in costs but it is the way of things now. Think a lot of vets would agree in part. Trust is vital and it is easily lost I am happy if the vet does as asked (within reason) and listens Is informative and communicates. To me these are the best vets whatever their age and level of training

 

[Gingerwitch]

But I won’t do painful procedures under Sedation, it’s not fair on the animal because they will feel it, and it’s unpredictable - I won’t risk having an animal leap off my table after being stimulated by pain while I am exploring a lesion in its paw (or any other painful procedure) That’s just a hideous situation all round.

Do you ever give anything to relieve stress at the same time as sedation ?

 

[HashRouge]

Polygon, kudos to you and your husband. I completely agree about one side of the story. I so often wish I could reply on social media with the truth when faced with these awful posts! We once had a horrid post made about our practice which was widely shared in local horse groups and caused us a lot of grief. It was along the lines of 'These vets only care about money, they care nothing for the welfare of the animals' (except longer, more ranty and more sweary than that!). What had we done? A client rang to book a 3rd flu vac for her horse. We had the temerity to ask her if she wouldn't mind paying for the 2nd vac (done 6 months previously and still unpaid!) before we came out to do the 3rd one. But of course we can't reply to her posts with that!



Redders, my congratulations. You sound like an excellent vet, and a credit to the profession.

I rarely post on forums, but just thought I needed to reply to let the other vets on this thread know that they're not alone. If you're struggling please contact Vetlife, open up to a colleague, or even give me a PM!

Like the others, I wish I could say it gets easier. It doesn't. I've been an equine vet for over 20 years now. I am head of a small equine practice. I earn more than you Redders. Not a lot more than you however! I work over 12 hours a day, 5 days a week at the moment, with overnight on-call on top of that every second night, and all weekend (24/7) every second weekend (sometimes every third weekend). I am tired. SO tired. I am tired of losing colleagues and friends. I am tired of the abuse we are subjected to. I am tired of people who are rude to my staff, but sweetness and light when they speak to me. I am tired of people who take 6 months and hours of staff time before they will pay a £50 bill. I am tired of people who rant about you all over the internet when you have no recourse to reply. I am tired of people who ring you at 7am on your first day off in three weeks for something trivial. I am tired of people of people who ring at 7am on your first day off in weeks because they forgot to get their horse vaccinated and have been turned away from a BE event and are angry so they decide to ring and shout at you. Then offer you cash to ring the BE vet and lie and say that you did vaccinate their horse so it can run after all. Some of my clients I love dearly, and am happy to count as friends. Most horses, regardless of who they belong to, I love, and would turn out at any hour of the night for. Today I cried with a client when I had to give her the bad news. I still love my job. But this job has changed. It is not the job it was when I graduated. And it is the worse for it.

It is easy to say that we must have known what it would be like, but to a student a £25k wage sounds like a fortune. I have a lot of students come to do EMS with me. Seeing practice as a student really does not give you an insight of how stressful it is when the buck stops with you. The student doesn't have the clients shouting down the phone. There is no way of knowing as a student how the stresses build up over the years. How it feels to have been on call every second night for the last twenty years of your life. I knew the wages wouldn't be amazing, but I had no way of knowing that if I had a busy week (we get paid a flat salary based on standard hours - no overtime) I would earn less per hour than my construction worker husband who does 8-4 5 days a week and doesn't have so much as an O level to his name. I never dreamed that working in a professional field I would be able to afford to keep a horse on DIY, but not to have lessons or compete!

I am so sorry that so many of you seem to have had bad experiences with your vets. I can see that it is very upsetting for you. But I would like to add that I do not know a single vet that sets out to do anything but their best. Maybe that doesn't always work out. I am truly sorry if it doesn't. But please remember before you post hurtful comments that vets are all people. And every few weeks there is one more vet who can't take it any more and pays the ultimate price. It's heartbreaking. I hope I am strong enough to keep trucking for another 20 years! All jobs are hard, I get that. But we all need to be kinder to, and more respectful of, everyone we meet.

I'm genuinely astonished about vet salaries. I had no idea that they were generally quite low. Is this a commonality across the industry or are there regional differences?

 

[Gingerwitch]

Good vets are wonderful worth every penny and should be paid promptly. There are a few thing that bug me and I know newly qualified vets need to learn but some could learn a thing or two from old nagsmen too. It is hard when you have a bad experience, and have had a few, not to want to rant. The trend for corporate buy outs is causing the biggest rises in costs but it is the way of things now. Think a lot of vets would agree in part. Trust is vital and it is easily lost I am happy if the vet does as asked (within reason) and listens Is informative and communicates. To me these are the best vets whatever their age and level of training

Thus 100%. Newly qualified vets need to understand that some owners take everything that is said to heart. Apart from my own experience I know if one other when the vet insisted horse had to go for surgery, needed blood transfusion etc. I stepped in and contacted the senior vet, as it did not seem to be what I was seeing. he arrived shortly after stiched said horse and apologised.

 

[Nicnac]

hopefully I can explain this a bit.
sedation doesn’t cause satisfactory analgesia, and some procedures (for me this is for ear related issues, all surgery, and orthopaedic radiographs - if we aren’t able to manipulate the joint in the right position then the radiograph would not be diagnostic and then a waste of money, and it can be really painful)
There is some analgesia with *some sedative agents but it’s not enough to compete a procedure well or safely.
a general anaesthetic is far far safer - we are able to control the airways (hugely important in all breeds and species but especially so with flat face animals) if we only used sedation and an animal crashed, we would need to convert to a GA to control the airway and monitoring and the time it takes can make a huge difference to survival times.
sedation has a finite amount of time of adequate sedation to complete a procedure and this isn’t always long enough.
in large and equine, a lot is done under sedation and local anaesthetic because a)cost b) facilities and c) GA is actually more dangerous in these species due to the weight of the intestines and complications of breathing, temp regulation and risk of severe injury to animal and human on recovery.
i hope that makes sense
An example:
I diagnosed mammary carcinoma on a dog, and guidelines state I need to stage the cancer and check for mets prior to the animal undergoing a radical and invasive surgery, which means I need to radiograph the chest. I need this under a GA so I can inflate the lungs to be diagnostic and get the best images.
I explained to the owner that I could do this under sedation and it would be cheaper BUT it won’t produce the best images and therefore I am
Likely to miss a tumour if there is one, so I would prefer to do under a GA BUT so long as the owner is aware that it’s not the best, but is the best they can afford (which is fine) then I will do under sedation.

Thank you so much Redders for taking the time to explain this so well. Much appreciated.

 

[rara007]

Great post Gamebird- thanks