Vet Bashing

[smolmaus]

I am sorry to hear about your hamster experiences, they are such lovely little characters. The local vets I have used to euthanise a hamster has always used gas first. With my Roborovski, the vet actually left him in his little hamster house to gas, so he went very peacefully without any stress.

That is good to hear. I don't blame vets for not always using gas first, obviously they're just doing what they're taught and we do have a responsibility as an owner to be an informed advocate for our animals too. Nobody's fault. Just sad.

Glad your tiny man had a peaceful passing. I would love a robo one day! I only rescue though and happily they very rarely seem to need it!

I think the problem is the free treatment on the NHS, people are simply not used to paying for treatment and moan about prescription charges so a bill from a vet is a surprise and they have no idea what medical treatment costs.

Indeed. I once tried to estimate what my childhood ear problems, braces, Ceoliac diagnosis and skull fracture (not horse related) might have "cost" based on private healthcare rates and stopped when it got beyond anything I could pay back in taxes for the next 30 years. And I'd say I've been very lucky, most people will have theoretical bills far beyond mine. Eye opening to say the least.

 

[milliepops]

i think it must be very difficult for vets in a mixed practice. to be expected to be tip top in all species is kind of an impossible challenge. I've been registered with an equine hospital for years and so while I will sometimes request a specific vet who i know has a special interest in what i'm dealing with, on the whole they are all really excellent.

 

[Gingerwitch]

Also in my post I bracketed (or owners who can afford diagnostics) after I said insured. I never assume. I always ask. You may be able to afford it, but there are many I see who can’t.
And I feel quite saddened though that in that whole post you chose to pick up on some perceived slight and have a go.

I don't see what your problem is. My vet always asks if the animal is insured - sensible question as costs are relevant and we are not made of money. Insured or uninsured, I still decide what is or what isn't done. My decision, not the vet's or insurance company's.

It does not always work like that. I know if a horse that was kept in agonising pain for over 48 hours as owner would not pts without the insurance say so. Yard owner threated to shoot horse as it was in such pain which finally brought them to there senses. Also insurance can make owners and vets jump through loads of unnecessary treatment before they will give Lou. Then there is the owner who just has animals put down. A local family on average have 2 horses a year shot. They gave had 2 done this year already and the 3rd is on box rest. Now this must be something they do, young fit horses getting colics, or legs being knackered.the youngest daughter bragged she had wasted 25 k this year on dross. A few years ago o e if there's was dying with colic, vet was enroute to PTS. Me and yard manager were doing our best to stop it bashing itself to death and they were on horse quest looking at why they could buy next. They had veiwed and brought a replacement within 12 hours of that. Disgusting family. Yard owner asked them to leave just after this as they had had over 15 horses put down between 3 over 8 years.

 

[milliepops]

this all assumes that everyone is insuring for LOU or for a pay out on death though. not everyone does. if a horse of mine needs PTS then it would get PTS. I don't insure for LOU, it pushes the premium up.

there are rubbish owners all over the place but I don't think it has any relevance to whether you insure or not.

 

[Quadro]

There are bad vets out there, as well as there are bad medics. Sometimes they do provide poor service that deserves people to complain. Sometimes they do an excellent job.
I had a vet out to do a passport sketch on a horse that I basically rescued. Vet asked if I was going to get the horse gelded, I replied no. They vet then asked the same question during the sketch, again I replied no. At the end of the sketch the vet said that I really should get the horse gelded. Horse was a mare that gave birth 6 weeks later......

 

[AmyMay]

I dont think you read the post correctly Gingerwitch. Talk about going off the deep end.

Indeed. When I was a horse owner I would have been in terrible financial trouble if my horses had not been insured. Not everyone can put their hands on several thousand bounds at the drop of a hat ??‍ In fact I’d go as far to say that most horse owners walk a financial tight rope every month just to afford their horse, let alone an injury or condition that could suddenly mean they’re looking at an enormous bill.

So yes, it’s imperative that a vet asks the question ‘is your horse (animal) insured?’.

 

[Tiddlypom]

But, Amymay, if you did not jump through all the right hoops in the right order demanded by the insurance company you could have found yourself paying out for the premiums but still not getting any payback.

And yes, animals are left suffering while owners wait to get the go ahead for treatment/PTS from the insurance company.

 

[AmyMay]

But, Amymay, if you did not jump through all the right hoops in the right order demanded by the insurance company you could have found yourself paying out for the premiums but still not getting any payback.

And yes, animals are left suffering while owners wait to get the go ahead for treatment/PTS from the insurance company.

I’ve never had an issue with my insurance company. Not that, in relation to the topic, it’s relevant. Redders said she asks if an animal is insured. I absolutely see no issue with that.

And I don’t doubt animals suffer whilst their owners fanny around. We’ve seen one or two examples of that on the forum.

 

[teddypops]

But, Amymay, if you did not jump through all the right hoops in the right order demanded by the insurance company you could have found yourself paying out for the premiums but still not getting any payback.

And yes, animals are left suffering while owners wait to get the go ahead for treatment/PTS from the insurance company.

Ive never had an issue or had to jump through any hoops, have had no demands placed on me and I definitely haven’t left any of my animals suffering because they are insured. I don’t really get that at all. If my horse needs the vet, I get the vet, the horse gets treated, I fill in the claim form and send it off. The insurance company pays the vet direct. I don’t speak to the insurance company at all. I had one of my old ponies pts last Christmas, I did the same as I always do. Insurance company paid for death, disposal and my bill and I didn’t speak to them to get permission.

 

[milliepops]

I’ve never had an issue with my insurance company.

no, nor me. and tbh if an insurance co was being awkward and the animal needed immediate PTS or treatment then personally I'd just get whatever was required sorted, and then deal with it later. as I know other people do too. It's always suggested that if you insure then you have no control, but you do, of course you do. it's your horse to treat as you choose. you just might -in very select circumstances - forfeit a pay out. it's not the end of the world IMO and it's still worth having the cushion available in all the other very routine cases.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I never had an insurance claim refused but the hassle factor was so much greater before I started to self insure. Now it’s just me, the vet and the animal, and no damn ticking clock before the claim is closed.

People waiting on insurance co go ahead is a thing.

 

[TPO]

Its not happened to me personally and I've made decisions irrespective of insurance however I do know of lots of people who hold off on any decisions until they get insurance ok.

I had a horse pts because at 21 the option of surgery for a tumour wasnt an option for her welfare and insurance didnt pay out because I "didn't pursue treatment". Maybe the op would have given her a few more years, maybe it would have killed her. Either way i was happy (relatively speaking) to make the decision solely for her welfare.

I do appreciate others arent fortunate enough to be in a position to either pay or have empty credit cards that they can pay off.

Its fine to say to have money available, and you should to some extend, but you just need a degloving on a fence and you're in the thousands just on banishing materials. I dont know many people with 5k set aside solely for vet bills that may or may not occur

 

[Gingerwitch]

I think

Its not happened to me personally and I've made decisions irrespective of insurance however I do know of lots of people who hold off on any decisions until they get insurance ok.

I had a horse pts because at 21 the option of surgery for a tumour wasnt an option for her welfare and insurance didnt pay out because I "didn't pursue treatment". Maybe the op would have given her a few more years, maybe it would have killed her. Either way i was happy (relatively speaking) to make the decision solely for her welfare.

I do appreciate others arent fortunate enough to be in a position to either pay or have empty credit cards that they can pay off.

Its fine to say to have money available, and you should to some extend, but you just need a degloving on a fence and you're in the thousands just on banishing materials. I dont know many people with 5k set aside solely for vet bills that may or may not occur

I think it's scale. Being a multi horse owner for many years I put 250 ISH away a month in there piggy banks. Vet bills and big tack items come out of this. Routine jabs are paid as normal, but the bank soon adds up. I can see why 1 horse owners would Insure but if as I have been at some points been up to 5 horses your are much better insuring. My lowest number over the last 20 years has been 3 and once I had 5 so insurance would be 150 to 250 a month on premiums.

 

[ester]

I think it depends a bit on the issue, sometimes it's ok to wait for the insurance say so

 

[Gingerwitch]

I think
I think it's scale. Being a multi horse owner for many years I put 250 ISH away a month in there piggy banks. Vet bills and big tack items come out of this. Routine jabs are paid as normal, but the bank soon adds up. I can see why 1 horse owners would Insure but if as I have been at some points been up to 5 horses your are much better insuring. My lowest number over the last 20 years has been 3 and once I had 5 so insurance would be 150 to 250 a month on premiums.

That should be self insuring

 

[milliepops]

I think it depends a bit on the issue, sometimes it's ok to wait for the insurance say so

yeah not everything is life and death!

and as for self insuring, that's fine if you can build up enough to have 5k for every horse you would have insured pretty early on. it might not be achievable for everyone. (it's not for me!) last one i insured is my foal, when she was 2 weeks old her policy kicked in and she has 5k per incident available immediately. if I was self insuring that would have taken me ages to build up, but what if I'd have needed it when she was 6 weeks old?

different strokes for different folks. plus, as a multi horse owner.... some of mine are "worth" spending ££££, some are in god's waiting room and are not, frankly

 

[Silver Clouds]

Regarding the corporate takeover of practices, this is largely a necessity due to vets' wages being so (relatively) low. I have two vet friends who are approaching retirement age; one is the sole owner of his practice, the other is one of two partners at their practice. Both of them have been trying to sell the practice/their partnership interest for a couple of years, but can't find a younger vet who can afford to buy in, or who wants to take the risk (e.g. re-mortgaging to raise capital). They have both now said that if they can't find a younger vet within the next 12/18 months then they will be forced to sell to a large corporate (like CVS), or to dissolve the practices and close the businesses. The loss of independent practices is very sad, but if younger vet's can't afford to buy a practice or partnership then this will continue to happen as older vets retire. I understand why clients 'bash' the corporate takeovers (and I agree that they can feel very impersonal, and some seem very financially driven as opposed to being driven by the love for animals), but it is difficult to see how many practices would continue to exist without them.

 

[rabatsa]

With regards to people being unaware of the cost of their medication and treatments. I have a family member who was in hospital, 30 years ago, he needed a blood product which the hospital porters were not moving as it was just after AIDS and blood products had been connected together. Long story short I would go up to the blood bank for his syringe of stuff. On the wall was a list of patients and how much product they recieved according to their weight. Above this was written in large letters that it cost 46p a unit. My relative needed 3,500 units each time and could have doses for 14 consecutive days.

 

[SEL]

I think it depends a bit on the issue, sometimes it's ok to wait for the insurance say so

A non urgent wind operation for example?! I've had the quote but if the insurer says no then it won't happen.

 

[L&M]

I would rather a vet's bill than pay for legal advice - £195 per hr with £300 up front to cover 'costs'......and I am sure a vet has to study as much, and as in depth, as a solicitor. And a solicitor doesn't have to risk life and limb to treat a client......

The only thing that galls me about our vets is the call out of £40 which seems a lot when we are less than 3 miles from the practice, but anyone capable of healing, prolonging, or even saving one of my animals lives will always be priceless to me.

 

[criso]

I think it depends a bit on the issue, sometimes it's ok to wait for the insurance say so

I've waited where basic work ups, nerve blocks etc have failed to pinpoint the issue and I've needed the go ahead before going down the mri or bone scan route.

 

[milliepops]

yeah, and there are numerous other non-urgent things where even when you aren't insured it's OK to wait. I just had a wait of 2 weeks for the vet I wanted, for one of my non-insured steeds. he was on leave the first week, and then i needed him to come on a day when the yard would be quiet which added another delay. i wasn't about to call an emergency vet for something the horse had been living with for 10 years

 

[NinjaPony]

I’ve never understood this waiting for the insurance before making an urgent decision. For a non urgent treatment option it makes sense. But I’ve always spoken to the vet, treated and then claimed. I never hesitated to get the vet out based on insurance... if the horse needs treatment it needs treatment. Insurance just means I may not have to sell a kidney in the process. Either way, I do what I think is best.

 

[ycbm]

I think there is an issue for long term horse owners who were used to vets turning up and diagnosing, often, on the first visit. This was before all the expensive diagnostic equipment was available. Nowadays you are likely to pay a callout and examination fee for the vet just to say 'I need this, this and this spent on diagnostics before I can diagnose'. I think there is scope with some owners for that first stage to be done by a phone call and not an expensive visit. And a lot of scope, if only we could stop people suing if it goes the wrong way, for the old advice of "give it 3 months of Dr Green" to be used a lot more often.

There is also an issue, again understandable, that vets can only prescribe expensive tested and licensed treatments, some of which were previously available at much lower cost (pergolide is a good example) and not use some very cheap alternatives that aren't licensed and therefore won't be covered by insurance if the vet is later sued, so they can't use them.

There is still a real problem with too many vets who appear to think that every foot issue with a barefoot horse should be treated with shoes, and every foot problem with a shod horse should be treated with different shoes and drugs.

There is no excuse for abusing most vets in person or online. I had a vet let me and my horse down very badly 35 years ago. He later apologised and said his divorce proceedings had affected his judgement, and I told him he was only human and shook his hand.

Given the length and cost of training, vet salaries are incredibly low.

 

[ester]

Maybe I just know too many poorly paid scientists with as many years training? We all should have been something else.

The vets I work with now work on fish farms, fewer clients to worry about (well just one), prior to that was abattoir/post mortem room ones probably for similar reasons!

 

[Woody50]

I have never vet bashed from the point of view of how much they charge but i lost my fantastic youngster due to a vet misdiagnosing something for 10 months and not being prepared to listen to me. He told me i was the problem and i should give the horse to someone else to ride. Eventually i changed vet to one who would listen and we got a correct diagnosis.The horse was PTS. IF the problem had been found originally as i kept suggesting the horse would be here now happily eventing. Im afraid i hate that vet with a passion!

 

[millikins]

I have no issue with vet charges, large or small animal though I moved the dog's vet after they joined a group for OOH, meaning I'd have to drive 20 miles and pay about £125 just to be seen, before any treatment, a call out charge and a consultation fee.
My current horse vets have started a new wheeze during lockdown which they appear to be going to continue. They want payment in advance, not for a routine booked visit like vaccination where costs are standard but for all treatment. So during lockdown my small pony was being treated for laminitis, I called the vet when she had a set back and they wanted £200, they told me it was because their suppliers had reduced stock, I refused to pay in advance for unknown, un invoiced treatment. I'm cynical enough to think if the bill was actually £175 pre CV, they'd find some added extras to justify their £200 fee. I didn't change practice as I very much like the vet who was treating her but I think I will now as it appears to be their new method of billing. Is it even legal?

 

[paddy555]

I have never vet bashed from the point of view of how much they charge but i lost my fantastic youngster due to a vet misdiagnosing something for 10 months and not being prepared to listen to me. He told me i was the problem and i should give the horse to someone else to ride. Eventually i changed vet to one who would listen and we got a correct diagnosis.The horse was PTS. IF the problem had been found originally as i kept suggesting the horse would be here now happily eventing. Im afraid i hate that vet with a passion!

I too have never vet bashed from the POV of their charges but I nearly lost 1 horse and 1 foal due to vet inefficiency. The horse was diagnosed on the first visit by the vet( the senior partner) as botulism. If I had been a total innocent and listened to the vet he would have been PTS. Instead as I refused he was given an anti biotic injection. 3 days later it had worn off and another vet came out. I told them he was diagnosed with botulism. That vet knew me well and just laughed. By that stage I had begun to see the funny side of it but it was very poor service from the first vet.

My 9 month old foal became ill, stopped eating. Vet arrived didn't take it seriously and I had to insist they even took a blood sample. The following morning he was worse, rang the vet twice, they were busy. They didn't ring back or take me seriously. On the 3rd call I told the receptionist not to bother with the vet but to ring the horse hospital as he would be there by lunchtime. That brought the vet to the phone very quickly. The hospital were amazing. They took it very seriously. The intern had worked on stud farms and had a good idea they were dealing with lawsonia. Blood went in every direction. Guts were scanned for an hour and they said they would try and save him. He was there in isolation for around 5 nights. They were brilliant and he made it. That foal owed his life to my actions and the horse hospital. If I had waited for the vet he would just have died.
I don't expect a local vet to recognise Lawsonia but I do expect them to recognise when a foal is seriously ill. The vet who had first seen him was not a novice just out of uni but a partner with years of horse experience.

As you can imagine that was the end of my time at that practice. They were then taken over by CVC.
Luckily I then stumbled upon the most brilliant practice with vets who listen and know their stuff. I consider myself very lucky now.

I'm sorry about your youngster Woody.

 

[SusieT]

I imagine millikins the problem is that they are not getting paid hence to protect themselves they have to do this.

 

[millikins]

I imagine millikins the problem is that they are not getting paid hence to protect themselves they have to do this.

I would accept shortening the time they allow for payment but putting half their staff on furlough and then charging for services that may or may not be required leaving he customer to chase them for any outstanding amount, if you can prove there is one, isn't ethical.