Welcome, Hermosa

[tristar]

i got a 5 year old last year, never picked up his feet before, the hinds were impossible, i would ask for lift he would stamp, so i let him, then just kept patting the rear end running my hand down his leg, and left it at that for the day, eventually he would lift and i would hold for a few seconds then let him stamp, it was untidy, gradually he would pick up his hoof when i ran my hand down his leg and rest his toe, this took months to complete, one day i asked , he lifted and rested his toe so i held and lifted his leg and picked out his hoof, now he is fine, he was good with the fronts so i would pick out the front then casually touch the hinds, the important thing for me was he is good for the rest of his life when he needs his feet lifted, all this was going on while he was being lunged and long reined, no sweat and understanding of what is being asked, balance and habit.

just saying because any normal person teaches their youngsters to lift their feet when they are still on the mare , well we do

hope she improves soon

with the travelling you were not there so you don`t know, anything good or bad could have happened.

if you can in the future try loading her in a lorry with another horse in there already, who was loaded in her sight, i`sure you are right about having your own trailer, then you could have fed her on the ramp every day to get her feet on a least.

i dont know really , but try taking some steps backwards and relax, find something she likes and is good at and have some fun and play time together.

i know i go on a bit, but i wish i could take some of the stress away or help

 

[milliepops]

Might be worth sedating for the first couple of trims just to make it less stressful and it avoids you having to force the issue at a time when you are trying to build trust.

i was thinking this, too, if it's a really pressing issue and she's finding it difficult, then it would be easier to just get them done even though it's not the 100% perfect way, then there is plenty of time to be teaching her the right way before next time.
if she's that bad I would wonder whether she'd been doped previously to just get it done, same as mine was given a couple of clicks to load him when the transporter came rather than faff about for hours.

Horses always pick up on it when you're feeling a bit *argh* about something, when there's a deadline of some kind, even if you think you're covering it up they always seem to suss it out and react accordingly if you can deal with the deadline everyone can breathe a sigh of relief and start again without any pressure.

 

[paddy555]

She's only getting all day turnout on days when it's not too wet and not too windy. Which can't be relied on in Scotland. Come fall, she will have to move again because there is NO winter turnout.

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I have sat on my hands on this thread. However, the above is simply not good enough for a 2yo IMHO. Sorry, I am not being rude but the needs of the horse especially a youngster come above all else. What you do with a youngster will be reflected in the adult horse. In this case you are basically going to be sitting waiting for at least 3 and possibly 4 years until you have the riding horse you want. All the problems created along the way, insecurity, nervousness and everything else will come to the fore.


ATM until she can be turned out, live in either a herd of youngsters or with an adult full time baby sitter who will look after her for a couple of years I cannot see the point of training especially join up. She just looks sad and confused in the join up pics. Many youngsters are bad about the back legs. It takes a very long time before they are confident, months sometimes.
I have had a lot of youngsters (all of whom I have done lots with) but they have all had a very stable and consistent background. I am not one of those who thinks youngsters should just be turned out with a herd. Mine love working but they have a very secure home life to fall back on. Nothing is unexpected. They live in the same place, nothing changes. A couple of moves of home in a month is going to affect any youngster badly. I am not sure why she needs to learn to load ATM. Getting her happy and secure would be much higher on my list.


It is a sad fact that a lot of livery yards cannot cater for youngsters. They are not set up to do so in the UK so many people at livery just don't have the chance of a youngster.

I looked at your link to the stud she came from and I was a bit surprised. I understand from your comments you are N Glasgow. I expected the stud to be the other end of England but it is only S Glasgow. It also offers 3 sorts of livery. Presumably if they have accommodated Hermosa's needs for 2 years they could continue to do so. Why can't she go back there on livery for a couple of years. It may be further for you to travel but she would be in an environment she is used to so that she can grow up.

I am afraid I really wonder if she is the horse for you. It is going to take a lot of patience to wait for several years. Youngsters are not consistent about working (in hand before they are broken) My youngster came at 7 mths and now, just short of 6, he has become the horse I wanted. He was rideable before but now he is "giving" what I had hoped he would not just "being ridden" because that is what he was broken to do.

In the meantime he has done loads even as a yearling and 2yo. However that was when he wanted to learn. There were spells when he didn't want to learn and it was a case of chuck him out in the field for a couple of months to just let him grow up.
I realise that is an unpopular question for you but are you content to just wait, turn Hermosa out for spells and do nothing for months whilst she grows and mentally matures?

 

[chaps89]

If you have now found a yard with 24/7 herd turnout, whilst another move is not great, would it not be better in the long run for her? She can be a horse, have some basic handling, the pressure can come off and who knows, you may even start enjoying it
I've been where you are where a yard has changed and you just want it back to how it used to be. It's very easy to stay and just hope/live on a memory of what it could be like. Unfortunately that doesn't help and makes the present worse always wishing for how it could be. Without wishing to sound blunt it doesn't sound like Gypsums yard is ever going to suit, too many changes that just aren't working for you.

 

[Boulty]

If you think you've found somewhere that would be a better option, which you wish you'd found earlier then I'd move her there if you can. You're going to need to move her before Winter anyway & if you do it now she's the whole Summer to get settled in a herd (Winter is always a PITA) time to be doing introductions in smaller or more muddy fields!). She's not getting what you thought she'd be getting where she is now & I wouldn't be happy with that setup for a youngster.

If she's only travelled in lorries before I really wouldn't worry that she's unsure about a trailer (equally if she's only been in a big lorry I wouldn't worry if she's not sure about a 3.5 ton... The orange one took ages to "get" side loading lorries as he'd only been in trailers or 7.5 ton & he always hated anything with a steep ramp). I wouldn't take it as a sign she was mistreated unless someone saw something happen.

I think you're right re doing little & often with the feet, safer than risking her freaking out & injuring someone or herself (I'm sure I don't need to say this but make sure you're doing your foot handling on a decent surface... Numpty features went down on his knees a few times before he twigged that he couldn't lift his opposite leg up as normal when I was holding the other one as I can't support his full weight / how to shift his weight when stood on 3 legs... Didn't bother him & he was fine but if we'd been on concrete he might have hurt himself)

 

[PurBee]

Edit: that's also true, the maturity thing. She may or may not be ready for much at a certain again.

my arab gelding wasn’t ready for much full-time learning until around 4ish, when his brain could actually hold a thought Longer than a second!

 

[Caol Ila]

I will know whether or not the 24/7 yard has space on Monday.

OH and I had a long chat. We feel the best way forward is to move Hermosa to that yard as and when we can, and keep Gypsum comfortable for as long as possible. I don't think she has another winter, given she goes very lame when it's cold and wet, so at best, that will be through the summer. If that. When we can't do that anymore, buy a green (but backed) cob-type all-rounder horse, 5/6 years old, and put some mileage into it for a couple years. When Hermosa's old enough to do more and be in more or less full time work, sell it (or find a sharer if I like it too much...lol) to a kid or adult who wants that 7-9 year old sensible, well-trained, not-scary horse.

 

[Dexter]

I'm sorry to hear about Gypsum. I'll be in that situation shortly and I'm upset just thinking about it coming.

You could buy the highland. A ridden highland who has been well schooled and educated is going to be hugely in demand.

 

[Caol Ila]

I would get what looks like would work. As it doesn't have to be a horse I fall in love with or looks like it might be able to do Advanced Medium, I'm less fussy.

Everything about watching your old horse deteriorate totally sucks. Making good decisions about what you want v. what you can afford also sucks. Most nice, broke PREs are like five figures.

Re: feet. The first time Hermosa had her feet handled, ever, was the vet check. Her breeder did not handle them at all. No farriers. Nada. Hence the curling toes in the front. As far as the back feet go, she might as well be a mustang in a BLM pen.

 

[Wishfilly]

I'm sorry about Gypsum. It must be so hard to be facing losing a horse you've had for so long and obviously love so much.

 

[tristar]

I would get what looks like would work. As it doesn't have to be a horse I fall in love with or looks like it might be able to do Advanced Medium, I'm less fussy.

Everything about watching your old horse deteriorate totally sucks. Making good decisions about what you want v. what you can afford also sucks. Most nice, broke PREs are like five figures.

Re: feet. The first time Hermosa had her feet handled, ever, was the vet check. Her breeder did not handle them at all. No farriers. Nada. Hence the curling toes in the front. As far as the back feet go, she might as well be a mustang in a BLM pen.

that is terrible about the feet

 

[Inda]

You’ll get there. I got there.

Carmins feet needed done as well as her teeth, she had some points that needed rasped down. It’s hard when they don’t even know what a brush is.

You’re ahead of me, it took 6 months of standing around in the youngstock field before I could get a head collar on her, my personal best/worst was 6 1/2 hours. And that was for me, she was notorious for not coming near anyone else.

I would recommend getting her use to a rug before the winter, rugs were my biggest battle.

You’ve met Carmin, she’s a big soft lump who thinks everyone is her friend. It’s not impossible but it’s hard work.

Although I had trimmer out for her feet who called her feral... they were not invited back.

 

[Caol Ila]

Oh, wow. Yeah, she takes a headcollar like any veteran horse and comes to you in the field and the stable to be caught, she picks up her front feet and lets you pick them out, she ties better than a lot of horses, and she enjoys being brushed. Haven't faced the rug thing yet, but I will stand with her and drape an arm over her back and down the other side. I can stroke her all over, with my hand, a brush, and even with a dressage whip. She doesn't mind this.

When I first got her, she would snatch her head away when you tried to put the headcollar on. But she stopped doing that after about three days. However, at the vet check, it took her breeder about twenty minutes of chasing her around the stable to get it on (and I still bought it??).

TBH, most of the work we are doing is basic leading work. Cementing the whole yield from pressure thing and respecting my space thing and not running me over thing. The horse only learned to lead (and the rest) after I bought her. She is coming on leaps and bounds (the little bit of join-up helped) with it, and leads like a trained horse most of the time now.

Other than the yard faff, the hind feet really are the biggest issue right now.

 

[PurBee]

It’s amazing that she’s totally cool with front feet handling yet so resistant to hinds. I guess with them being rear-driven animals, those hinds get them out of trouble, so it suggests, that she’s possibly not as relaxed as she seems to be. She wants her hinds for what theyre intended for as she may need to run at any time, and ‘giving them up’ to someone to handle, means she cant run anywhere.

As she’s allowing body touching willingly, and leading well etc...i’d definitely try the soft rope method i detailed in an earlier post. It allows the slow introduction to hind lifting, it enables you to be in a safe position, at her neck to also be encouraging to her, it enables you to gently coax a few inches lift, then lower the foot, in seconds. It also means to her mind, no-one is grabbing hold of her foot and leg, preventing her from running away.

The cowboy method of grab hold, and fight, and never let go until they calm down, is tricky because it sometimes tells the horse, that everything was ok in the end, and some horses remember the fight and it frightens them more, making the next time impossible. My gelding experienced the cowboy method with a farrier and he decided no-one was going to handle those rears. So slow and steady, rope method, was my approach.
When i got to lift his feet with hands and if he tried to get loose, i didnt grip his fetlock, just had the tip of his hoof in my hand and moved back and forwards with his movement. He would stop the resistance and i’d carry on trimming 10 seconds, then drop the hoof when I wanted it down. I had to teach him i wasnt going to vice-grip him like he had before and never let go.

At a push for a really resistant horse, food is a great encourager. Some agree with treats, others dont. Its up to you and the situation and the horse. With her fronts, ask for a foot, which she easily gives, then praise and give a treat. Like with training a dog. Do the other front foot, praise, treat. Ask her to yield back, praise, treat. Walk-on, praise, treat. All the stuff she does willingly easily now, use that as a basis for praise, treat. She’ll soon understand, like a dog, that when asked to do something, if she does it, she gets food rewarded.
Then move onto the rope for the rear feet, gently put pressure on the heel bulb, using the same word you use for the fronts, and she’ll get the ask of her, and that moment she knows she’ll be rewarded if done as asked.

Some might think if you use this method, they’ll always want treats when asked to do anything but like with dogs, they dont, they end up becoming accustomed to doing as asked and verbal praise becomes the reward. If everyday, for everything you ask of them you give food reward youll train the dependence on food reward, so i’ve never used food reward as a constant stimulator. Just adhoc, for tricky stuff. Sometimes a mini 10 minute handling session, they get a bundle of hay afterwards. Thats like a reward but they never know theyre going to get it. So they learn to relate working with me with good feelings, rather than stress. Again, only used for stressy, difficult animals.
So as a last resort for really tricky situations where there’s no give from the animal, food treat training is a go-to method, if other methods aren’t helping.

As Inda said, it’s a slow process but you’ll get there. Youngsters really are good at teaching patience! I had a short supply before working with my youngster. Now im so laid-back and patient im practically horizontal ?

 

[tristar]

Oh, wow. Yeah, she takes a headcollar like any veteran horse and comes to you in the field and the stable to be caught, she picks up her front feet and lets you pick them out, she ties better than a lot of horses, and she enjoys being brushed. Haven't faced the rug thing yet, but I will stand with her and drape an arm over her back and down the other side. I can stroke her all over, with my hand, a brush, and even with a dressage whip. She doesn't mind this.

When I first got her, she would snatch her head away when you tried to put the headcollar on. But she stopped doing that after about three days. However, at the vet check, it took her breeder about twenty minutes of chasing her around the stable to get it on (and I still bought it??).

TBH, most of the work we are doing is basic leading work. Cementing the whole yield from pressure thing and respecting my space thing and not running me over thing. The horse only learned to lead (and the rest) after I bought her. She is coming on leaps and bounds (the little bit of join-up helped) with it, and leads like a trained horse most of the time now.

Other than the yard faff, the hind feet really are the biggest issue right now.

you are doing great, don`t worry about the hinds, don`t push too hard, herself or yourself, one day at a time, one week at a time, let HER work it out.

 

[paddy555]

re the hinds.. Do you have access to concrete which is the best foot trimmer of all or is she safe to lead on tarmac, even a drive.
I took on a 6yo 16hh rescue, Spanish X stallion. His feet were untrimmed, he had been very cruelly treated and it took me a very long time even to pick the fronts up. One back I never managed. I sorted the trimming (I can trim my own so he had every resource and time available to him but still couldn't) by putting him on a concrete yard for part of the time. He had beautifully trimmed feet and I was quite safe thanks to the concrete.

 

[Caol Ila]

She has to go on part of a road to get to the turnout field, so she is safe to lead on roads, and when I tie her outside her stable, she's on concrete.

 

[Caol Ila]

Tell me what to do. Having Hermosa forty miles from my other horse isn't working for me, but I've found a space at a yard that seems pretty good, and she will be out 24/7 all summer. It's cheap as well, as it's grass livery. Seems simple, right?

But it never is that. The other day, as I'm driving into my old girl's yard, I see a livery's (who happens to be good pals with YM) two-year old and his three-year old buddy in one of the paddocks. I ascertain that he's not going to be here 'long term,' whatever that means, but still. Quite a 180 from being told that they don't want youngstock. I've drafted an email to the current YM, nicely asking if my filly could possibly go back there now that there's more grass, yadda, yadda, as I still like the yard, despite our differences, and it's the closest one to my flat, plus having two horses in the same place would be nice. I'm hesitant about sending it. 24/7 yard is not desperately far, it would save a ton of money, and the YO will introduce my horse to their herd with proper introductions and I won't have to herd cats (aka, other liveries) to make that happen.

 

[milliepops]

I honestly wouldn't go anywhere at this point, that wasn't able to give a fairly cast-iron long term plan. Otherwise you might find yourself looking for somewhere else in the autumn.

obviously things change for unforseen reasons but this place seems to change plans fairly often, plus if it's the YM's best buddy then it may well be that it's one of those special arrangements that normal clients never get offered.

 

[Annagain]

Tell me what to do. Having Hermosa forty miles from my other horse isn't working for me, but I've found a space at a yard that seems pretty good, and she will be out 24/7 all summer. It's cheap as well, as it's grass livery. Seems simple, right?

But it never is that. The other day, as I'm driving into my old girl's yard, I see a livery's (who happens to be good pals with YM) two-year old and his three-year old buddy in one of the paddocks. I ascertain that he's not going to be here 'long term,' whatever that means, but still. Quite a 180 from being told that they don't want youngstock. I've drafted an email to the current YM, nicely asking if my filly could possibly go back there now that there's more grass, yadda, yadda, as I still like the yard, despite our differences, and it's the closest one to my flat, plus having two horses in the same place would be nice. I'm hesitant about sending it. 24/7 yard is not desperately far, it would save a ton of money, and the YO will introduce my horse to their herd with proper introductions and I won't have to herd cats (aka, other liveries) to make that happen.

If you don't ask, you don't get. There's no harm in asking and at least you'd know where you stand. You could still opt for the other yard even if they say yes. But I also agree with mp - I wouldn't got to either place unless you see it as at least a semi-permanent move.

 

[Caol Ila]

I honestly wouldn't go anywhere at this point, that wasn't able to give a fairly cast-iron long term plan. Otherwise you might find yourself looking for somewhere else in the autumn.

obviously things change for unforseen reasons but this place seems to change plans fairly often, plus if it's the YM's best buddy then it may well be that it's one of those special arrangements that normal clients never get offered.

Ugh, it's who you know, right?

24/7 yard does have a cast-iron long term plan. She could easily stay there until next spring, or even longer, and she will stay until at least spring 2022 if we go there. Their winter turnout arrangement is also pretty sweet. Gypsum's yard would probably not offer a cast iron plan for introducing a youngster into their adult mare herd. Their view in early March was that I should be able to arrange this with the other mare owners, but without support from yard staff (which one would need, given half the horses are on full livery) or even a paddock to do it in. Who knows if that has changed?

The filly's current yard has no winter turn-out, so if she were to stay there now, I would be looking for somewhere else in the autumn anyway.

 

[milliepops]

therefore I would stick with your plan re the 24/7 TO place I think and not try and put her on a yard that is not really set up for babies unless you're in the in-crowd. if you ask, they might say yes just to avoid confrontation but then withdraw the offer when it becomes inconvenient or some other arbitrary reason. It doesn't seem like they are terribly keen on making exceptions for all clients so why set yourself up for more hassle?

It's the same all over, I can't complain, I'm an in-crowd where I am, as YO doesn't really *do* livery but she has me.... I've been the out-crowd in other places.

 

[Caol Ila]

Yeah, you're probably right. The youngster will get lots of experience living in an adult herd at this other place and grow up a bit, which will set her up for life and being slung into adult herds. That is a really common thing around here. I have found that many places do it that way (with Gypsum, I had no idea what introduction SOP was in this corner of the world because she hasn't lived in a herd in 20 years).

How do you get to be in the in-crowd? I clearly suck at this (c.f. my academic career). But that's probably for another thread.

 

[milliepops]

Hand over about 50% of my salary to the training yard next door long long term trouble free client, that's me

 

[Caol Ila]

I tried that at Gypsum's previous yard, but my horse wasn't trouble free, so even after eight years, he didn't like me.

 

[milliepops]

yeah i have a tricky horse but she is neutralised by my other one, you wouldn't really know how awkward she is esp at the moment as her current friend is retired so she is never left alone, ever ever ever ever. Not many people opt to keep a spare horse to save other people from hassle though see what a nice client I am? haha.

I see why it would be tempting to try and take her to Gypsum's yard, i have my horses in 3 different places and its a PITA... but I do think you have to be really careful to be realistic and not sink into wishful thinking. Yeah it would be really nice if they would change the way they do things to accommodate Hermosa and make life easy, but the chances are, even if they do it will only be for as long as it suits THEM, and realistically as clients we have no say about decisions that get made. They've already shown you how they work at that yard. the choice is to accept it or move, as you've already found. so if they say you could have a paddock for her, I'd want it written into a contract how long for, what space is yours, how it is to be managed and so on before even thinking about it... they will probably see that as an unattractive prospect. Hence thinking the other yard is the better bet, don't be trying to get a place to bend to your needs, go somewhere that can already meet them.

 

[Caol Ila]

I think once Hermosa is four, or nearly four, with a year of experience in different herds, she will be able to toe the line just fine at Gypsum's yard. Chances are high that I'll still have a horse there one way or another.

Two yards is better than three. Why are yours so spread out?

 

[milliepops]

I think once Hermosa is four, or nearly four, with a year of experience in different herds, she will be able to toe the line just fine at Gypsum's yard. Chances are high that I'll still have a horse there one way or another.

Two yards is better than three. Why are yours so spread out?

Different groups have different needs.
The babies are in one field which has a foaling sized stable, hardstanding, generator for electric etc. Field only big enough for 2 though, so the oldies live the other side of the village on a bigger acreage but no facilities except water.
Ridden horse off site for mega facilities and company for me ?

 

[windand rain]

It might not work putting babies together either I took on a young livery to krrp kitten company but it is an out and out bully so Kitten is with the 25 year old and the young livery is with the black git gelding. He really does earn his keep as a companion only don't tresspass on his property if you value your life. He is great with new horses and young horses just not their owners. I would try to get her with your other horse if possible but not if she will be bullied and they make it difficult to get her settled

 

[chaps89]

Exactly what @milliepops says.
I have a special needs horse, who also has her own companion pet. It's a pain but that's my problem, not a YO's.
It does not work going to a yard that says they will accommodate you by doing things they don't normally, because then you are the odd one out and then you stand out for the wrong reason, and sooner or later (and it's very often sooner!) They get fed up and you have to move on.
It might be nice to have them on the same yard sure but it doesn't sound the right move right now, the 24/7 yard is presumably closer than the current 40 miles which is a win in it's own right.