Welcome, Hermosa

[Caol Ila]

I'd do a wee fb stalk of the people attached to the Cumbernauld yard first. It may or may not be a fit for you.

I stalked a bit but couldn't get a sense of it. Your stalking skills may be superior.

New to this thread and am sitting here, opening and closing my mouth like a stranded fish. I have my own place and NONE of mine graze together. They are all in adjacent paddocks, split by electric fencing and I have had zero injuries' inflicted by the 'characters'. How is this not the obvious solution?

And as to the 'rubbish' grass is the best grass thing, look at all the obese and laminitic ones we have because owners really do not have the basic knowledge of nutrition. That combined with the inherited predispositions to metabolic disease and PPID.

Most livery clients have no clue about land management either. It's a precarious business at best with the vagaries of our weather and many are outraged if the fields don't open on the day of pronouncement because there was a deluge on the preceding five days... Or 365 turnout, you know because fields repair themselves overnight. I'd be unhinged by uncleared fields, too, and worming schedules and herd dynamics being constantly upheaved.

Finally, I had a VERY nasty gelding because he was herd leader - a very stressful position - who settle immediately he left to be part of an established herd and was relieved (literally!) of his duties as field manager!

Now I will finish reading the thread...

I have spent years looking for a yard with paddocks divided as you describe and horses individually turned out, or put into carefully thought-out small herds. Living the dream, but that's not a thing that seems to exist within a sane driving distance Glasgow. My old horse does very well in that kind of arrangement, and I can't tell you how many missions I have gone on looking for it. I have no idea why almost no one does that around here, but they don't. And the two yards I know of that do kind of set-up their fields that way I've had to leave.

 

[springer-tb]

That yard near Cumbernauld is what used to be Horse Haven, it doesn't seem to be the same people involved this time though.

It's not very close to Cumbernauld, more equidistant between Gartcosh and Moodiesburn.

 

[PurBee]

Is what I do - from another ex member on here.



Most people have forgotten this. Farmers have a hard time understanding they don't need feeding like meat of dairy cattle.



It's the very devil, isn't it!



Lol!


Livery people can be very strange.



Stop permanently wrecking your ground and get Mudcontrol mats!!!

At £12k per acre to install of mud mats and never be able to re-seed, mole drain etc again - i’ll stick with 80 quid bag of grass seed!

 

[atropa]

Seen the new old Horse Haven heavily advertised on FB, it seems like livery could be a new venture for the new owners. Sounds potentially like winter turnout is just an hour in a barn while you muck out though.

 

[Caol Ila]

Seen the new old Horse Haven heavily advertised on FB, it seems like livery could be a new venture for the new owners. Sounds potentially like winter turnout is just an hour in a barn while you muck out though.

I'd guessed that as well.

In other news, she went out today! No drama. Just grazed and lazed around in the sun, and then came up to the YO to be caught.

The drive is still a bitch, but she will stay where she is for now.

 

[brighteyes]

At £12k per acre to install of mud mats and never be able to re-seed, mole drain etc again - i’ll stick with 80 quid bag of grass seed!

I thought you said you are hiring a digger and putting hardcore down! And of course you can reseed with mudcontrols - you lift them.

 

[Caol Ila]

Hermosa had a very busy today. First, I introduced her to ground poles. She stepped over one like she'd seen a million of them. Then we upgraded to three, and OH, who has never laid a ground pole in his life, placed them, so the striding was...whatever. She cruised over them, no bother. Didn't care about the hitting the odd one with her foot. Next time, I can get creative with configurations.

Then I did a bit of gentle join-up. Very controversial, apparently. Who knew? It's what we do with everything in the US. I didn't chase her hard or aggressively...None that making it run fast while waving a flag at it. I just put a gentle bit of pressure on her to walk and trot around me, until I could draw her in and she followed me around. Once we achieved that, I praised lavishly, put the halter back on, and took her out of the arena for more brushing.

 

[Caol Ila]

Oh, boy. We have a loading issue. I feared as much when I moved her from Gypsum's yard to current yard because she did not want to go near the bloody ramp. We bribed her on board with a Lickit.

YO's trailer was hooked up and parked with its ramp down today, so I thought we would check it out. My goal was to get her to approach the ramp and maybe put a foot on. No big deal. She, however, wanted nothing to do with it. She planted about two-to-three feet shy of the ramp and refused to go closer. I could see that she was quite anxious, and she wouldn't look at me or the trailer. Kept turning her head to the side. I tried to gently encourage her to approach and got a couple tiny steps. Okay. I moved her away from it a bit and returned to some groundwork, but she had plainly mentally checked out and had gotten really anxious. She's not an explosive, dramatic horse, but you can see when she's unhappy. She won't look at you and puts her ears flat sideways, like an airplane. I did more super basic groundwork, the stuff she's really good at, and then settled on leading her back and forth past the trailer. When we could walk by it without her focusing on it instead of me, I considered it a win and left it there.

I'd sell my firstborn child to have my own trailer. I would hook it up every day, and we would play with it until it was a nothing thing.

I think the driver who moved her from her breeder's yard to my yard scared the crap out of her in order to get her on board. I wasn't there, but I would bet you a million pounds that's what he did. I thought I was doing the right thing, because everyone swears by them, and she was traveling with an older brother, but now I wish OH and I had rented a 3.5 ton and fetched her ourselves. If it takes four hours, it takes four hours. Commercial drivers on a timetable, however, aren't going to spend four hours loading a horse.

With a sensitive, intelligent horse like this, frightening or intimidating them into doing something will leave you in a bigger mess. Hermosa is still being difficult about picking up her hind feet, and YO suggested that we put her in the stocks and try to hold her leg up with a rope. I said that is not going to happen. I think the filly would panic, potentially injure herself, and at the very least, you'd then have messier problems to untangle. I'm going to clicker train the hind feet thing. Started the basics today -- training her to the click with touching a target and teaching the rules of the game (look away for treats... no mugging).

 

[TPO]

I'd be careful insinuating that a Gillies driver used force on/frightened/intimidated a horse to load it. They and their associates read this forum when their name comes up.

I've used Gillies for a terrible loader who was reactive when stressed and the driver was brilliant. I've used them three other times including for an extremely sensitive mare and for a 2yr old. I couldnt fault the drivers at all, they are excellent IME.

I'd edit your post if you still can

 

[milliepops]

Do you think you've got a *problem* or just a horse that doesn't really understand the question and was maybe on an off day, brain-wise? Has she been in a trailer before? Pros normally have lorries don't they?

My baby tb was doped to travel to me. I expect him to be useless at loading into my lorry so will expect mild disinterest and not a great deal of enthusiasm about going up the ramp. I doubt I'll ever try him in a trailer until the lorry is rock solid.

 

[shortstuff99]

The good thing with Spanish horses (and mares too I think), is that they are quick to learn and will give more when they trust you.

My mare became a terrible loader after an accident in the lorry, but slow and careful training cured her of it. I think with the training you are doing she will soon come round.

When you get a youngster again you start to realise how stressful it can be, like forgetting what puppies are like ?.

 

[Jeni the dragon]

The Gillies drivers I have met have been wonderful with horses! The man who collected Rog was so lovely with him.

 

[PurBee]

With the hinds - if shes fine with you touching/grooming butt and hind legs -use that as an approach to picking up feet.
My gelding needed re-training hinds, and i found , once i could get to touching his hind legs, that if i groomed his hind legs and then itched all the places he cant reach...behind canon bone, heel crevice, inbetween outside canon ligaments, inside hock crevice...that relaxed him enough to then, after about 5 mins of grooms and itches, to place hand on heel bulb, with your shoulder at their flank, and gently pull up while asking ‘give’...they know what we’re asking, sometimes stubborness ensues...ask again, giving pressure on the heel bulb pulling up, dont give up/in.
When she gives it, ‘good girl’ pressure comes off immediately from heel bulb, give some itches around the foot, tap the hoof sole, just a few seconds, not long, so you get the chance to decide the hoof goes down, instead of prolonging the first experience and she gets wiggly and decides to pull from you, and begins to learn how to fight hind hoof handling.

If she fights straight away, dont let go, she’ll see it as winning and a useful tactic for the future. Hang on the hoof until she’s still, then at calm, the hoof is released.

If you cant get near her hind legs intimately for grooms/scratches - my gelding was like this initially, totally re-wilded, kicky, double-barrelled me - the whole shabang!....i used a long soft rope, swung it on the floor encircling the hind hoof, held each end of the rope with me standing at his front shoulder, and i gently guided the rope up his hind heel up to heel crevice and pulled towards me gently, asking again ‘give’ as he resisted lifting it. More pressure applied, pull towards you, ‘give’ ask when pressure applied, and they eventually give, give praise while allowing their hoof to cradle in the rope, lifted. Then when all calm and standing still, lower the rope, praise again.

Then move onto grooms/itches when the rope method is fully accepted without issues.

Trailer loading is something ive got to approach too ?

 

[daffy44]

I'd be careful insinuating that a Gillies driver used force on/frightened/intimidated a horse to load it. They and their associates read this forum when their name comes up.

I've used Gillies for a terrible loader who was reactive when stressed and the driver was brilliant. I've used them three other times including for an extremely sensitive mare and for a 2yr old. I couldnt fault the drivers at all, they are excellent IME.

I'd edit your post if you still can

Agree with this, I've used Gillies twice for two different yearlings, and the drivers were fantastic, calm, endlessly patient, and couldnt have given the horses a better introduction to loading and traveling, both horses have gone to be excellent loaders and travelers.

I'm sorry you had a bad day with your mare today, but I'd be careful of making assumptions about a company/its employees.

 

[bouncing_ball]

I'm sorry you had a bad day with your mare today, but I'd be careful of making assumptions about a company/its employees.

It could be due to moving home twice in a short time, she associates travel with leaving behind everything she knows and unrelated to how she was loaded. It’s a challenge you’ve got plenty of time to resolve together.

 

[daffy44]

It could be due to moving home twice in a short time, she associates travel with leaving behind everything she knows and unrelated to how she was loaded. It’s a challenge you’ve got plenty of time to resolve together.

I think this is so true, I think often the actual travel is not too bad for the horse, but when they travel and lose everything they know, and dont return home it creates a very stressful association, which takes time and patience to resolve.

 

[atropa]

I think its quite unfair to say that about Gillies on a public forum, especially if you weren't even there to witness the loading. They have an excellent reputation for a reason.
If she had a real problem with travel I doubt you'd have managed to bribe her with a Lickit last time.

 

[Northern]

I think the Gillies driver who moved her from her breeder's yard to my yard scared the crap out of her in order to get her on board. I wasn't there, but I would bet you a million pounds that's what he did. I thought I was doing the right thing, because everyone swears by Gillies, and she was traveling with an older brother, but now I wish OH and I had rented a 3.5 ton and fetched her ourselves. If it takes four hours, it takes four hours. Commercial drivers on a timetable, however, aren't going to spend four hours loading a horse.

This is unfair, transporters have to deal with a wide range of horses (and I bet most of them do not have appropriate handling) and the majority have the tricks to get them on efficiently but sympathetically. I understand it comes from a place of frustration, but as you would know horses are no robots and she's had a lot of upheaval in her life. Trying to find someone to blame for her acting like a insecure young horse is not a solution. Take her back and start from the very beginning, like she has never seen a trailer or truck in her life.

She's only been with you a short time, chill out and stop being so hard on yourself (I say that because your frustration comes out in your posts). Spend more time doing the basics, take her for walks, get the ground work perfect and then leave her to be a horse once she's out 24/7. You'll get there, with time

 

[Caol Ila]

My only other experience was my other horse being given no hay during a full day's drive from Newmarket to Co. Durham, which wasn't direct by any means. It was a circuitous adventure through the Midlands picking up horses, and it took about eight hours. How do I know for sure? I was on the lorry with her, the whole time. When I asked why, I was firmly told that they are not fed on the trucks because they might choke. My horse had crossed the US -- three times in total -- and they definitely had hay on board. The truck that took us from Schiphol to Kent also gave them haylage. So... I dunno...

She approaches unknown things quite bravely. Farm equipment, cows (Gypsum does not even do this one), plastic bags, jump blocks, etc. Unfortunately, she now knows what a lorry/trailer looks like and what it does. With my last youngster, I loaded and unloaded him before I moved him to his new home, but I had my own rig. Did not have that option here.

Unfortunately, we might have to jump that hurdle sooner rather than later if we want (a) 24/7 turn-out (b) me not going insane because my 80 mile round trip commute sucks. I'm reverting to my New York City levels of road rage.

I'm not that frustrated with the horse herself. The horse really is fine. I think people only pick up on the glitches. I write that she walked over poles nae bother, and that picks up a few likes but that's it. Which is also fine. As all writers know, the good sh1t's bloody boring.

That said, I'm still pi$$ed at this whole situation. If we'd been able to figure out something at Gypsum's yard, I think I would be enjoying her, a lot. And I could have made a better yard choice if I had given myself more time to look, but I felt like I needed to move ASAP. In reality, another few days would not have made a damned bit of difference because the filly was coping, but that wee bit of extra time would have got us to a place a hell of a lot closer (albeit still dealing with the sh1tshow that is the M8), with a great youngstock turnout set-up.

Feet-wise, she's perfectly happy for you to brush and stroke her hind legs. But not even the farrier could hold onto her hind foot while she was wildly kicking out. If he can't, I have no chance. I think my +R approach will probably work.

 

[milliepops]

She's had a lot of change in a fairly short space of time. It sounds like she wasn't doing much except hanging out with her mates at the stud and she's gone to new places with new people and embarked on quite a bit of new learning... which is productive but I just wonder whether you need to step it back a notch and let her absorb what she's already learned?

It just comes across a bit desperate, northern is right, the frustration of your situation is palpable and I understand that. But I think she's 2? Even older young horses can have miniscule attention spans and get a bit frazzled by things. It must be frustrating with gypsum being off buy my feeling would be that this mare can't fill the gap quite yet.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Not sure if you're interested but here's a short story...

My PRE came from Spain to Germany as a coming 5 year old. This was his first traveling, which took 5 or so days, with a few stops in France. John Parker International did a really great job. The video of him getting on his first lorry was a bit comedic (really dramatic high stepping on the ramp). Anyway, he had been backed, had a good basic walk, trot, and canter. Had hacked a time or two.

When I went to ride him it was as if he had never been backed...if I didn't have several videos I would've thought I had been fooled! I basically had to re-start him (laying over his back, accepting weight, OH being a great ground person for me). It took a bit of time, not going to lie.

He knew riding, mounting, and whatnot, and I don't think he had a bad experience, I think he was just so unsure and a lot was new (me, the yard, the other people, etc.). So he had a reintroduction to riding. The same could've been said for trailering, but he just followed me right on. I think because of all of the ground work, time spent, and "connection" that we had built with the whole rebacking thing. He's not the bravest of creatures, but is really brave about many things that cause other horses to lose the plot.

Anyway, my point is, she could've had an ok experience with her traveling but then just felt overwhelmed or unsure about everything new. She didn't/doesn't know your expectations, and things (her home) change every time she gets off the lorry/trailer. It is a big life change for her. So it's possible that they sometimes go a bit backwards or change their feelings toward something.

However, once you get her "with you" and solid on the ground (no idea about join up, so can't comment on that) I think you'll find that your connection with this horse is like no other. Someone said this to me about Iberians and I rolled my eyes and thought "cheesy" but then...it's true ?

The loading will come and there's a lot of work you can do without a trailer to prep for loading. She's 2, and even if she were 8, don't fret too much. Short positive sessions will work in the end. Even the slightest progress is progress. Don't overwhelm yourself or the horse with expectations. You'll get there. Some horses at 2 are completely feral, so you're ahead of the game

I can understand your yard frustrations. People love to keep horses in small stables/boxes here 24/7 at least 6 months out of the year. It's so common and drives me up a wall. It becomes a "best of the worst" type game sometimes, and you're at mercy of the YO if livery is your only option. It's mentally draining.

I wish you the best of luck, I'm sure you'll get it all sorted out eventually.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Reading your posts, with their increasing levels of frustration, I'm afraid that I am of the opinion that this youngster and your wants and needs at this time are not a good fit.

You need something up and running sooner that she will be.

There's no shame in selling her on to someone with the time and facilities to do her justice. She's a lovely filly, but IMHO she's not for you at this time. Youngsters have short attention spans, they don't want or need a lot of handling/in hand work at that age. The loading issue is a minor one, common with babies, and is one to be expected and calmly worked through.

Find something that is already backed and being ridden out, and that you can crack on with riding from the off.

 

[ycbm]

When I brought my first warmblood home I saw him loaded and he went on easily and travelled quietly.

The next time I tried to load him he wouldn't go on. And when I retrained him to load and started travelling him he trashed the lorry trying to get out.

I don't think you can blame previous bad handling for a horse not loading unless you were there and saw it.
.

 

[ycbm]

CI when I bought my mare she was 7 and unbroken. The stud told me they never break them before 6 because they aren't mature enough to do much until then. Since then, I've heard quite a few comments about how many PREs go lame, and I wonder if it's connected.

There's a possibility your fillly won't be ready to do much for 3 or 4 years, and I'm another who thinks, sadly, that you might have the wrong horse, and would be better with an older one.

I'm really sorry if that's not helpful, but your posts sound sad about the situation.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Edit: that's also true, the maturity thing. She may or may not be ready for much at a certain again.

 

[milliepops]

Even older more established horses go backwards after a change of environment. I moved mine last August (to a place they had both visited frequently) and the TB instantly lost about 6 months of learning, it just fell out of his head. The advanced horse went feral. I think because they seem to do ok we overlook what effect it has on them deep down.

I understand the desire to do stuff with a new horse esp when the older one approaches retirement but I think most people find a blank canvas youngster does ok without years of pre-backing prep. so I'd just want to tick off the hoof trimming and slowly chip away towards loading, and thats probably plenty for a young mind to be getting on with.

CI I'm guessing you're not wanting to sell her, so can the yard do full livery a few days a week to save you the travel, and then you do the other days? I think before you moved there you said they were experienced with youngsters so presumably that might work?

 

[Lyle]

FWIW a lot of the youngsters I've worked with can be bribed easily onto a trailer once/twice, but after that they obviously start to question the process, especially if the journey has resulted in a move from their homes.
groundwork, groundwork, groundwork. Wouldn't be looking at loading until you have the respect, and trust from the ground. The fact that legs are difficult is a huge red flag that the respect and trust isn't there.

Hook into it with your filly, getting them great on the ground sets them up to being an amazing partner for the future

 

[southerncomfort]

For what it's worth, when I bought my youngster from his breeder I basically turned him out for a month and did nothing but bring him in for a brush and a feed and check he still led ok. I just wanted him to relax and begin to see this as his home, and see us as his humans before I put any pressure on him.

Moving from the only home they've ever known is a huge thing for them. They've lost their buddies, their humans and all certainty about their day to day life.

Honestly, I think taking a step back, letting both of you relax and get to know each other without any pressure will be hugely beneficial.

It's not a huge disaster if you put the farrier off for a bit. Let her get to know you and trust you and all these things will be much easier to achieve.

 

[Caol Ila]

The front feet were hugely desperate -- the toes were curling. The hinds are long, but not curling yet.

I really can't say she is the wrong horse. Yet. I don't know. But I'm just not sure she is in the right place. They have had young warmbloods, but I was not happy about their plan of putting her in the stocks to force the hind feet issue. She's only getting all day turnout on days when it's not too wet and not too windy. Which can't be relied on in Scotland. Come fall, she will have to move again because there is NO winter turnout. If I sold her, she would also have to move, so....

The yard I'd wish I had found in time has 24/7 herd turnout, year round. In the winter, they are on hardstanding paddocks at night, but still with their little herds of two to four.

 

[southerncomfort]

Might be worth sedating for the first couple of trims just to make it less stressful and it avoids you having to force the issue at a time when you are trying to build trust.