Well this is a can of worms

tallyho! said:
See this is completely alien to me. I have never ever heard about thigh length being important to seat size. Flap length yes, but not seat.
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We're not talking about seat size, we're talking about saddle size, they are the same thing fundamentally unless you have a specially made saddle, but that is how saddles are measured.
 
Ditto Tallyho. On the flat in a classical position, your knee should form the same angle no matter how long your thigh bones are.
 
littlelegs said:
Ditto Tallyho. On the flat in a classical position, your knee should form the same angle no matter how long your thigh bones are.
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I'm not sure how this means you don't measure thigh length when calculating saddle size. In all riding your heel should be in a line with hip & ear, whether you are jumping or doing flat work, that is going to change the angle your knee is at, though I stand corrected if it is more important that your knee is at a certain angle when riding classically.
 
I'm not talking about any particular school of 'classical' just what I call a good basic position. If you take two riders the same build & width both riding in a good classical position, & only leg length is any different, the taller won't bend there knees to a greater or lesser extent than the shorter, thus seat size has no bearing. I agree the flaps do, but not the actual seat. I'm not claiming I ride like Carl hester, but his is what I personally define as my ideal to aim for position wise on the flat if that makes sense?
 
littlelegs said:
I'm not talking about any particular school of 'classical' just what I call a good basic position. If you take two riders the same build & width both riding in a good classical position, & only leg length is any different, the taller won't bend there knees to a greater or lesser extent than the shorter, thus seat size has no bearing. I agree the flaps do, but not the actual seat. I'm not claiming I ride like Carl hester, but his is what I personally define as my ideal to aim for position wise on the flat if that makes sense?
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I think there is a general misconception that classical is different to good traditional. IMO they are one and the same thing.

A rider can have a classical seat whether riding bareback or with jockey length stirrups, and there will be a drastic difference in the angle of the knee.

A straight line would connect the points of gravity on the ear, point of shoulder, hip joint & ankle. These remain the same whether standing or riding, the only change being the bend in the knee and elbow.

IF you have an enormous bottom the issue will be whether you can sit on your seat bones with your thighs loose against the horse - unlikely if they have ther own centre of gravity.

That is an unchangeable thing. What will change is where your stirrup bar & knee roll is in relation to your knee and heel. these are adjusted to standard saddle sizes. If your saddle is too small for your length of leg it will push you back in the saddle. if it is too big you will be 'reaching' for the stirrups they will be set on too far forwards and they will unbalance you.
 
This is all news to me too. All I have heard of is my particularly tiny slender friends getting saddles with a narrow twist to accomade their small pelvis' and short friends getting saddles with shorter flaps to accomodate their short legs. I always associated seat size with bum size, obviously taking into account that some horses with very short backs need a short saddle. I don't think I have ever owned a long backed horse.

I am no competition rider, but wouldn't riding with stirrups a hole or 2 longer make for a comfortable solution? My daughter is nearly 6ft tall with endlesss legs and she has never had a problem and competed at RC level successfully. She has a 17.5" saddle.
 
littlelegs said:
Unless I'm missing something, I don't see that length of thigh has a huge bearing on saddle size. It's not my thigh bones in the seat, its my bum. So on the flat, the fact I have 36" legs doesn't mean I need a bigger seat than someone the same build, with shorter legs. Granted, different flaps & knee rolls etc maybe required, especially for jumping, but seat size is more dependent on build. Unless of course you are sat in an armchair type position.
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I totally agree. I'm 5'8 and size 8 and happily use a 16 inch saddle... Anything more than a 17 inch I swim in...

My friend, size 10, is 6 foot tall with very long thigh bones. She has to have all her saddles made for her, but has a 17 inch seat with extra long and "forward" flaps to accomodate her legs in jumping position. No change in seat size is needed as she has a small bum!
 
I like 18'' saddles and I'm short and not particularly fat.

I think if you can't afford a custom made saddle with longer flaps and you have long legs using a longer seat is probably a reasonable way to find yourself some more room? Ideally not how you'd go but obviously not all of us can afford to buy brand new/have one made.


Obviously nothing to do with being fat just a random musing on saddle sizing.
 
jesstickle said:
I think if you can't afford a custom made saddle with longer flaps and you have long legs using a longer seat is probably a reasonable way to find yourself some more room? Ideally not how you'd go but obviously not all of us can afford to buy brand new/have one made.
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No, because if you are forcing your bum back in the seat to fit your knees onto/ behind the knee roll you'll be out of balance...
 
siennamum said:
I think there is a general misconception that classical is different to good traditional. IMO they are one and the same thing.

Probably but not that I have seen in this life.[/I]

A rider can have a classical seat whether riding bareback or with jockey length stirrups, and there will be a drastic difference in the angle of the knee.

Yes I agree. So will there be in hip angle but a jockey only needs a very hort saddle.[/I]

A straight line would connect the points of gravity on the ear, point of shoulder, hip joint & ankle. These remain the same whether standing or riding, the only change being the bend in the knee and elbow.

Right.[/I]

IF you have an enormous bottom the issue will be whether you can sit on your seat bones with your thighs loose against the horse - unlikely if they have ther own centre of gravity.

So, it's not the length, its the width of said thigh? I don't understand that a big thigh has it's own centre of gravity. You need to expand on this one. [/I]


That is an unchangeable thing. I thought you said it was??[/I]

What will change is where your stirrup bar & knee roll is in relation to your knee and heel. these are adjusted to standard saddle sizes.

Lets consider the traditional tree. I have watched these made in my uncles workshop and the stirrup bar is always on the head and point. Some dressage saddle have longer bits of metal to put the stirrups further back under the flap but this is a new thing. The flap can be made as wide or as long as you want for the rider but it is the TWIST that makes the difference from sitting on a cantle or not.[/I]

If your saddle is too small for your length of leg it will push you back in the saddle. if it is too big you will be 'reaching' for the stirrups they will be set on too far forwards and they will unbalance you.

I still don't picture this. I would genuinely like to as perhaps we are speaking of the same thing, but I don't get why your leg length has anything to do with seat length.
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Polotash said:
No, because if you are forcing your bum back in the seat to fit your knees onto/ behind the knee roll you'll be out of balance...
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Exactly!!!!! There is only one place where the centre of balance between horse and rider is at perfection! Further back or forward will put you way out of alignment and you will be behind/infront of the movement.
 
jesstickle said:
So why do saddle fitters do it then? :confused:
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They could suggest everyone hs bespoke saddles. This will never happen. They have a selection of pre-made saddles and it has to fit the horse first and foremost (some people still think it's the other way around!) then the rider. It's called route of least resistance :D

As a long legged rider myself (need roller-skates for anything under 14.2) I have a bespoke 17" with extra long flaps, set back stirrup bars, rather fat knee rolls (it's how I like it) and a lovely gel seat. I don't spend money on countless rugs, I spend it on tack.
 
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jesstickle said:
So why do saddle fitters do it then? :confused:
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Because they want your money/ aren't instructors/ aren't very good fitters

Delete as appropriate! Just because people do it doesn't make it right. You would hope riders were good enough to feel when the proposed new saddle unbalanced them and say no to it, but perhaps this thread is showing that isn't the case.

Re having made to measure... there are many flap styles and only people with the most extreme "conformation" should need to go this route. For example, you could use a Wow, an Albion selecta, or just a jump/ event saddle instead of a GP if you needed more room on the flap for your knee...
 
Well I fit well into my 17 inch saddle and I'm no lightweight, in fact some of the more 'avid' HHO weight police would probably haul me off my horse :p She was in an 18 inch but it was too big for me, luckily she goes well in a smaller one :)

Also regarding leg length - I've seen William Fox-Pitt ride in normal saddles and his legs are about 8 miles long....
 
Ditto Tallyho re saddlefitters. I actually have a 16.5" jefferies gp on my 14.2. Admittedly my knee comes over the front jumping length, but I don't do what I'd call much proper jumping on her anymore. Rest of the time, on her or anything else I ride in the same basic position as I would be bareback. So seat size really doesn't play a part. I've also ridden very briefly in a safari cub as an adult. (Hopped on a 12hh chunk who was playing up with tiny child I taught for 5mins). Yes, I was stirrupless but I was sat same as if I'd hopped on bareback. Only had an inch or two spare so couldn't have jumped in it, without hovering my bum above the cantle. But on the flat, it made no difference to my position. Admittedly leg aids were compromised by being far too low!
 
Polotash said:
Because they want your money/ aren't instructors/ aren't very good fitters

Delete as appropriate! Just because people do it doesn't make it right. You would hope riders were good enough to feel when the proposed new saddle unbalanced them and say no to it, but perhaps this thread is showing that isn't the case.

Re having made to measure... there are many flap styles and only people with the most extreme "conformation" should need to go this route. For example, you could use a Wow, an Albion selecta, or just a jump/ event saddle instead of a GP if you needed more room on the flap for your knee...
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Most people have constraints on what they can afford and what they like though surely? It's all very well saying buy a WOW or an Albion but if you can only afford a Wintec that doesn't really help you does it?

Now, you might instantly start saving for something else but in the mean time you have to ride in something don't you?

I don't know. I'm short like I say.
 
There were apparently pictures Tallyho, luckily it was over 8yrs ago & I haven't seen them published anywhere so hopefully now destroyed! But if you've seen the thelwell pic of the girl with rollerskates, that's about right, just imagine pony is a piebald cob!
 
jesstickle said:
Most people have constraints on what they can afford and what they like though surely? It's all very well saying buy a WOW or an Albion but if you can only afford a Wintec that doesn't really help you does it?

Now, you might instantly start saving for something else but in the mean time you have to ride in something don't you?

I don't know. I'm short like I say.
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Yes I suppose so shortarse :D:D:D:D:p:p

Hey, we all rode in a plastic saddle at one time. Can't say it was perfect but it made do. We are talking about "ideal world" here and last time I checked there was just "real world"... so on that note I will take my longs legs to the pub and drown my sorrows... anyone welcome to join as long we don't tlk about saddles again!!!!
 
Could be the twist or depth of seat? These things make quite a difference surprisingly enough. I don't like certain twists, hurts my foo foo.

Oh dammit! Saddles again!
 
ROFL!! :D:D:D

My OH just came in and said "Who's Stubben???" Poor girl... must stop crying with laughter now.... I mean pain. Sympathy pain................... sorry :(
 
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