Woman attacked by dogs and killed in Liverpool

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

Or they would have a 'staffie x mastiff' that's just really big and muscular for it's age.. much like these 'staffies' that are actually pit bulls. Or the 'American Bull Dog mix' which is actually a Dogo Argentino

 

[splashgirl45]

Teeth, I don't dispute what your saying about dogs and teeth just wanted to point out in an ideal world a rabbiting lurcher should have enough control over its mouth to hang on to a kicking rabbit or even hare but not bruise or kill it, it always amazes me what we expect dogs to do. It would take a fair amount of strength to hold onto a hare for sure so you grip and hold all the way.
It seems many people dont realise that ideally lurcher should be as soft mouthed as gundog.

Why would you want a lurcher to not kill a rabbit but to bring it back alive? Seems an odd idea

 

[MurphysMinder]

I'm struggling to understand the logic here. If, for arguments sake, American Bulldogs were banned, then 100% of the people killed by American Bulldogs would not be dead, no?

Banning hasn't exactly worked for Pitbulls has it. Logically they should have disappeared years ago.

 

[Cortez]

Banning hasn't exactly worked for Pitbulls has it. Logically they should have disappeared years ago.

Hasn’t worked because it hasn’t been applied, perhaps?

 

[CorvusCorax]

It has been applied. Dogs have been impounded, assessed, euthanised, been given muzzle/leash/neuter/chip orders etc etc etc.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

The money raised from dog licenses should be used to employ more dog wardens, and dog wardens or police who spoted a dog without a license tag should seize it and fine the owner. Dog wardens could also scan microchips to check that the dog is licensed if they suspect the tag is fraudulent. There would still be some people who didn't bother, but hopefully over time that number would shrink.

Making entire dogs more expensive to license and making the breeder responsible for the puppies' initial licensing would cut down on indiscriminate breeding too- particularly the type who breed without even the financial reserves to pay when the bitch/puppies have a veterinary emergency.

The problem is that we don't have enough police officers to deal with major crime, let alone take notice of dog tags. Councils can't afford dog wardens.

 

[MurphysMinder]

Hasn’t worked because it hasn’t been applied, perhaps?

It has certainly been applied, plenty of dogs have been seized for being "of type" , often dogs that have done nothing wrong, but just the tip of the iceberg. It does seem that these hideous XL bullies (more so than America Bulldogs who can be lovely dogs) are taking over from pitbulls as status dogs ..

 

[Cortez]

It has been applied. Dogs have been impounded, assessed, euthanised, been given muzzle/leash/neuter/chip orders etc etc etc.

So what happened? Did the impounders get bored? Obviously for a law to be effective it has to be applied to everyone, otherwise it's not going to work is it?

 

[ester]

Trying hard to think of any other crimes that the law obviously doesn’t work for because people still do them ….

 

[Cortez]

Trying hard to think of any other crimes that the law obviously doesn’t work for because people still do them ….

Facetious. So do you have an solution or an explanation?

 

[twiggy2]

Why would you want a lurcher to not kill a rabbit but to bring it back alive? Seems an odd idea

You don't want the meat damaged or bruised in an ideal world or at least as little damage as possible, of the dog retrieves live to hand then you can dispatch it with a blow to the back of the head/neck so there is no damage to the bits you want to eat.

 

[bonny]

You don't want the meat damaged or bruised in an ideal world or at least as little damage as possible, of the dog retrieves live to hand then you can dispatch it with a blow to the back of the head/neck so there is no damage to the bits you want to eat.

Lovely

 

[splashgirl45]

A bit more distressing for the rabbit though, not my idea of fair hunting

 

[CorvusCorax]

So what happened? Did the impounders get bored? Obviously for a law to be effective it has to be applied to everyone, otherwise it's not going to work is it?

I don't know why you are asking me, TBH. You said it wasn't being enforced and that's not my experience. Where it has been enforced, it's been done badly, IMO.

The legislation is still being enforced in towns and cities across the UK, most newspapers no longer have the time or resources to cover county court sittings and the high profile cases are only high profile because the owners kick up a stink or something dreadful has happened.
The fact remains that the people who want to own dogs like these just use or buy breeds/types which are not banned to create the type of dog that they want to own to get round it.

These things have been explained multiple times on multiple threads, some people want blanket bans, other people think that's a blunt instrument to deal with a societal problem of the way people see/treat dogs and there have been some excellent ideas and solutions IMO.

By the by, the dangerous dogs/restricted breed legislation in the Republic is a nonsense (APBTs aren't on the list, by the way).
There was a bit consultation carried out in 2018 and to date, absolutely jack has been done.

 

[Cortez]

I don't know why you are asking me, TBH. You said it wasn't being enforced and that's not my experience. Where it has been enforced, it's been done badly, IMO.

The legislation is still being enforced in towns and cities across the UK, most newspapers no longer have the time or resources to cover county court sittings and the high profile cases are only high profile because the owners kick up a stink or something dreadful has happened.
The fact remains that the people who want to own dogs like these just use or buy breeds/types which are not banned to create the type of dog that they want to own to get round it.

These things have been explained multiple times on multiple threads, some people want blanket bans, other people think that's a blunt instrument to deal with a societal problem of the way people see/treat dogs and there have been some excellent ideas and solutions IMO.

By the by, the dangerous dogs/restricted breed legislation in the Republic is a nonsense (APBTs aren't on the list, by the way).
There was a bit consultation carried out in 2018 and to date, absolutely jack has been done.

Like I said, not an aficionado, I'm a pet dog owner with no axe to grind, but it seems ridiculous to me to allow people, especially irresponsible people, to possess potentially dangerous dogs. You seem to be against banning them, which is why I am asking for your point of view and/or any useful suggestions to solve the problem of people seemingly regularly being mauled by these types of dogs.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Like I said, not an aficionado, I'm a pet dog owner with no axe to grind, but it seems ridiculous to me to allow people, especially irresponsible people, to possess potentially dangerous dogs. You seem to be against banning them, which is why I am asking for your point of view and/or any useful suggestions to solve the problem of people seemingly regularly being mauled by these types of dogs.

There have been loads of suggestions over multiple threads, including this one, to address the wider issue.

The added problem of banning a breed or type which has no actual registry is that it's incredibly labour intensive and expensive to try and prove what it is or isn't.

 

[Cortez]

There have been loads of suggestions over multiple threads, including this one, to address the wider issue.

Thanks....

 

[splashgirl45]

The trouble with banning the breed is that the authorities are taking no notice of the temperament of the individual. There have been cases where good tempered family dogs have been seized and kept in kennels for months which obviously will make the dogs a bit uncertain and frightened and then they decide to end its life away from all it knows …it’s so unfair on the dogs and their families.. there is one who was a crossbreed and had never done anything to either people of dogs and after a long campaign she was allowed back home but had to wear a muzzle and never be off lead again, so sad for them.. if any of mine bit someone and I was told they were likely to be PTS I would take them to my own vet ..as they are 2 tiny terriers and a small lurcher it’s unlikely but always possible

 

[Fellewell]

Why don't drug dealers use guns for protection? They're more reliable and don't eat anything. Yes I know they're illegal but so is drug dealing and exploiting a reactive dog. OK so these dogs pass hands for lots of money but what's the point of a protection dog if you're the one that needs protection from it?
I have seen these types of set-up, the dogs are kept in individual cages in someone's front room. They've never been socialised with each other and respect for humans is low on the agenda for obvious reasons. When you consider that two well-trained dogs can act as a pack on occasion then what hope is there for these?
It's the breeding regulations that need tightening up. Nothing has really changed from what I've seen over the years and once these animals hit the ground it's too late.

 

[Birker2020]

The trouble with banning the breed is that the authorities are taking no notice of the temperament of the individual. There have been cases where good tempered family dogs have been seized and kept in kennels for months which obviously will make the dogs a bit uncertain and frightened and then they decide to end its life away from all it knows …it’s so unfair on the dogs and their families..

in some cases they have been kept in kennels and HUGE expense to the tax payer for years and years. Although I'm slightly sitting on the fence with some of these, because if you thought for one minute that your dog might be seized for 'looking like a pit bull terrier' you'd surely make sure it was muzzled in public anyway, regardless of whether they may be aggressive or not.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/218357.stm
If you don't want to click on the link here are five cases:

• Buster: Saved from a death sentence in March this year after a battle lasting nearly four years and costing up to Ł50,000. When the dog, owned by Sandra Rowlands, of Kirkby, Merseyside, was seized in 1994, a magistrate ruled that the animal was a pit bull terrier and should be destroyed because it had been allowed out without a muzzle. But another magistrate ruled that Buster should be released.
  
  
• Hanky Panky: This February a judge reversed a sentence ordering it to be put down. Last October magistrates ruled that the labrador-foxhound cross, owned by Elaine Enticknap, of Totnes, Devon, would have to die, after hearing how it had twice bitten postmen in the past four years. A judge ruled that it could live but should be rehoused in an escape-proof home.
  
  
• Kizzie: Freed by the High Court in October, 1996 after spending four years under threat of death after it was alleged to be a pit bull terrier. The dog was ordered to be returned to its owner, Jeanette Cragg, of Tottenham, north London, after two judges ruled that the destruction order issued by a stipendiary magistrate was an abuse of court powers. Kennel Club vets disagreed with a police expert who decided it was a pit bull, saying it was "weedy" with a weak jaw and no signs of aggression.
• Otis: Destroyed in February 1996 after being on death row for more than three years. The dog was seized as a pit bull type terrier unmuzzled in the back of owner Harry Bates's car. Mr Bates, who spent Ł50,000 trying to save it, contended his car was not a public place, and that Otis was not a pit bull terrier, but an appeal to the European Court of Human Rights failed because it should have been lodged within 14 days of the dog's seizure.
  
  
• Dempsey: Saved in November 1995 when two High Court judges ruled that it should be returned to its owner Dianne Fanneran, of Hanwell, west London. The pit bull terrier was originally condemned to destruction by Ealing magistrates in 1992 after being found walked in the street without a muzzle by Mrs Fanneran's nephew. Magistrates were told the muzzle had been removed because the dog was sick. The High Court judges decided that there had been a breach of natural justice because Mrs Fanneran had not been informed of a hearing by magistrates.

 

[CorvusCorax]

If you want more recent cases (less than 25 years ago), check out those of, for example, Hank and Lennox, both in Northern Ireland.

The dog trainer Jo-Rosie Haffenden's dog Archie was subject to an exemption under the DDA, before she relocated to Spain.

 

[Birker2020]

If you want more recent cases (less than 25 years ago), check out those of, for example, Hank and Lennox, both in Northern Ireland.

The dog trainer Jo-Rosie Haffenden's dog Archie was subject to an exemption under the DDA, before she relocated to Spain.

Yes I remember the Hank and Lennox dogs. One of the dogs lived in NI and the man who assessed them both wasn't even by his own admission a dog behaviourist. The whole thing was/is a total mess.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Yes I remember the Hank and Lennox dogs. One of the dogs lived in NI and the man who assessed them both wasn't even by his own admission a dog behaviourist. The whole thing was/is a total mess.

They were both in NI. The Lennox case was handled dreadfully and one of his owners did not help in the initial dealings they had with the authorities, unfortunately for the dog.

 

[bonny]

The only thing really that will improve the situation with dangerous dogs is if people stop paying thousands for them. As long as there is a lucrative market then others will continue churning them out, it’s an easy way to make lots of money. If somehow we could have a situation where dogs were only worth say £500 regardless of breed then it wouldn’t be worth breeding them in such huge numbers and dogs could go back to being seen as pets rather than status symbols. No idea how it could be enforced though.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Yeah for sure people need to stop paying crazy amounts for ALL dogs.

 

[AmyMay]

The only thing really that will improve the situation with dangerous dogs is if people stop paying thousands for them. As long as there is a lucrative market then others will continue churning them out, it’s an easy way to make lots of money. If somehow we could have a situation where dogs were only worth say £500 regardless of breed then it wouldn’t be worth breeding them in such huge numbers and dogs could go back to being seen as pets rather than status symbols. No idea how it could be enforced though.

Yes, but remember in the situation of the Bully and Micro Bully market, nothing is done above board. So legislation of any kind would have no effect.

 

[Smitty]

Honestly, I don't think anything can be done. There are still Put Bull half breeds being freely advertised on the internet, despite becoming a banned breed some 20 odd years ago, dog fighting still goes on here and in Ireland, many dogs not chipped, not to mention no name tag and the majority of people who desire these tough man dogs are going to get them anyway, whether the breeder is licensed or operates from a basement flat.

I truly believe we are stuck with this an a burdgening problem, more people will die from dog attacks and I can't see that anything enforceable can be done to stop the increased breeding of dogs that are capable of causing serious injury in the inevitably wrong hands they invariably find themselves in.

There needs to be a society wide rethink about the types of dogs we want in our lives and that, I don't believe, will ever happen. It's not going to be effected by any legislation.

 

[stangs]

it seems ridiculous to me to allow people, especially irresponsible people, to possess potentially dangerous dogs.

Every dog is "potentially dangerous".

 

[stangs]

Why don't drug dealers use guns for protection? They're more reliable and don't eat anything. Yes I know they're illegal but so is drug dealing and exploiting a reactive dog. OK so these dogs pass hands for lots of money but what's the point of a protection dog if you're the one that needs protection from it?

a) Please let's not start encouraging drug dealers to buy more guns (though I appreciate there's probably not too many drug dealers looking for dog tips on HHO).
b) "Exploiting a reactive dog" isn't a crime (or else everyone who's made one of those 'funny' videos by upsetting their Bichon Frise would be in prison)
c) They're not protection dogs. They're not trained to protect. Their sole purpose is intimidation.
.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

a) Please let's not start encouraging drug dealers to buy more guns (though I appreciate there's probably not too many drug dealers looking for dog tips on HHO).
b) "Exploiting a reactive dog" isn't a crime (or else everyone who's made one of those 'funny' videos by upsetting their Bichon Frise would be in prison)
c) They're not protection dogs. They're not trained to protect. Their sole purpose is intimidation.
.

Lots of these types of dogs are being trained as 'potection dogs' - I have seen a real surge in bite training, incredibly badly done, by people who don't know nearly enough and with owners who don't know what to do with, and really don't need, dogs 'trained' this way. If they aren't being specifically trained, then a lot of these status dogs aren't being trained out of signs of unsavoury behaviour as people think they will protect the home, or they feel like a big man with a snarling dog on the end of some sort of chain/leather lead..