Would you expect a YO to be able/willing to remove a shoe?

[OldNag]

I would expect YO in that situation to make sure the shoe is removed - by farrier if not happy to do themselves - but definitely to ensure it was done ASAP.

 

[Goldenstar]

You can’t get a farrier in half an hour unless you are very lucky you can however get a vet within I think forty minutes is the maximum ,practices are supposed to be able an emergency within that time .

 

[Winters100]

I had a similar situation when I was out of contact, and since my YO could not get me on the phone he had my vet come out immediately to remove the shoe and check the horse. To be honest I prefer that he did this rather than remove the shoe himself, but in an extreme emergency I would expect a full livery yard to have someone who could do it.

 

[Red-1]

Red my farrier was definitely not having me on.
He's a fantastic guy and really passionate about educating owners. Always has trainees etc. He was so disappointed in not being able to run a course for owners in removing shoes that he thought of running one using dead legs but as removing a shoe off a leg is a totally different skill there wasnt really any point.
So either he came across a jobsworth or the rules have changed since you did it (as they seem to have in so many ways making people ludicrously risk averse) or he framed his request wrong so his plan was misunderstood or it was an insurance problem. I dont know. Was your course insured/signed off on? Who by?? I'd be very grateful if you could post or PM details and I'll let him know.

I have PM'ed you.

 

[ester]

You can’t get a farrier in half an hour unless you are very lucky you can however get a vet within I think forty minutes is the maximum ,practices are supposed to be able an emergency within that time .

We're more than 40 mins from the practice, not on the edge of their covered area and would definitely be more than 40 minutes away if the emergency vet was on the other side of the area. I don't think there is any such maximum.

 

[Goldenstar]

RCVS guidelines for attending an emergency

 

[CanteringCarrot]

If you have a proper set of tools that are decent quality, it isn't a hard task. I have a small set of farrier tools that I keep for emergencies or touch-ups (rasp). I may not use them often, but when I do, I'm glad that I have them!

Removing a shoe isn't terribly complex. My YO will absolutely remove a shoe, as I've seen her do this for a livery that was not at the yard.

 

[holeymoley]

If the yard offers full livery then yes I’d expect them to KNOW how to remove a shoe but not necessarily do it unless there was a chance the nail went through the sole or the frog then in which case I’d expect them to remove it. Anything else is a job for farrier/vet.

I’ve removed 1 once for a fellow livery as it had twisted and was pressing on the frog as soon as the horse put its foot down. It was late on and we wouldn’t have got a farrier out and didn’t really see it warrant as an emergency vet call.

I know one woman that removes shoes at any sign of them being loose and had received hell from various farriers for doing so. There’s one thing it being loose and another thing it causing pain/problems.

 

[ForeverBroke_]

No, I wouldn't expect anyone to take the shoe off other than a farrier or a vet.

My horses feet have taken a lot of work to get even close to being 'right,' and I would be mortified if someone took the shoe off with half of the foot also. If an emergency obviously I would have to come up with a plan, but on my yard we will be alerted straight away if there is an issue with their shoe - and if I'm available I will contact the farrier myself or if not they will organise it for me.

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

I'm a YO, albeit a small DIY affair, and NO I would not remove the shoe of a livery's horse!

Not ever.

My set-up is "strictly DIY" in that I do not handle other people's horses unless there is a dire emergency; I live on-site and am prepared to offer basic "supervision" but make it clear to potential liveries that no livery services are provided here.

Even in a more official/bigger yard, I frankly wouldn't expect the YO to remove a shoe. Firstly there is the issue of safety to the YO themselves; and secondly there is the issue of being able to remove it correctly and safely without damaging the foot. I wouldn't see removing a shoe as being part of the YO's remit.

I would feel that any YO is justified in refusing to remove a shoe and letting the farrier do the job.

 

[milliepops]

I fully accept people's feelings on this but I'm a bit surprised that so many people wouldn't want to take a shoe off in an emergency even if it was hurting the horse. The OP's YO had arranged for the farrier to come in a few days time. if a shoe was so badly loosened/twisted that it's stuck in the foot or striking the other leg I'd find it very hard to leave it for the owner to sort when they returned days later

genuine question that I don't know the answer to, but if providing full livery for an owner who is away, where does duty of care start and finish?

 

[Meowy Catkin]

My own personal opinion is that every horse owner, yard worker or yard owner should know how to remove a shoe for emergency situations. When a shoe is twisted and half off, it needs removing now, not in half an hour or so. If it is not an emergency, then waiting for a farrier is fine.

I have been shown how to remove shoes by my Farrier, including an emergency technique where you don't remove the clenches and it is easy, quick, effective and I didn't take any hoof wall off or damage the horse in any way. I'm actually quite surprised that so many people think that it is such a difficult task.

 

[tatty_v]

I wouldn’t expect the YO to do it as there is a skill to it and risk to both YO and horse if it goes wrong. I do think, however, that it is unacceptable for YO to leave a horse on full livery days before the shoe is removed. If the farrier couldn’t come then she should have called the vet and you certainly shouldn’t have had to cut short your holiday @Ambers Echo!

I have a DIY livery and found her horse with a loose shoe the other day. Fortunately for me OH is the vet so quick call to him and all sorted properly!

 

[ester]

RCVS guidelines for attending an emergency

A link to show this would be helpful as what you are saying directly contradicts the current RCVS guidelines which make no mention of '40 minutes'.

https://www.rcvs.org.uk/setting-sta.../24-hour-emergency-first-aid-and-pain-relief/

Response time: on or off-site
3.35 Veterinary surgeons are not expected to respond to emergencies within a set timeframe. They should, however, respond with reasonable promptness, taking into account all the circumstances. There may be times when the on-duty veterinary surgeon, for various reasons, is unable to attend every emergency in a reasonable time. If this happens, the veterinary surgeon should make efforts to inform the owner and document the reasons for the delay. In some cases, it may be appropriate for the veterinary surgeon to make alternative arrangements to ensure emergency attention is provided.

I do wonder about the BHS not actually getting people to take shoes off during exams, I can describe how I would do lots of things and with what tools but I wouldn't actually be able to do them.

 

[Michen]

Tbh I'd have just rung my farrier (not waited for a text reply), and if I hadn't got him I'd have rung around some others that also attend the yard and found someone. I've done that before and had no issue, and have always paid appropriately (e.g double what I'd pay my normal farrier).

Arguably YO should have done the ringing around but it would have been easy enough to do from wherever you were I'd have thought.

 

[LEC]

I probably pull about 6 shoes a year across the 8 horses at the yard. I bought the correct kit which makes life a lot easier doing it. I am useless at it but can get them off pretty clean if I have some help as slow and don't have the knack. I just got my farrier to teach me how to do it. Frankly, every owner should know how to do it. All it takes is some time sitting with your farrier and putting some practice in. Nailing a shoe to a piece of wood is an easy way to practice.

 

[conniegirl]

Last time I had to pull a shoe it had spun round and the toe clip was drawing blood from the frog so it needed off then and there not an hour later and certainly not several days later.

i did not have the right tools, i had no training, but i managed to remove the shoe cleanly. It is honestly not that hard.

 

[sport horse]

Have you seen the hash job some people (vets included!) make at removing shoes?! I wouldn’t want anyone from the yard touching mines feet. If it’s so loose it’s moving then get someone to it or remove the nails that are out and boot/bandage it until it’s safe. And I say that as someone who has been examined on removing shoes! If something’s in the sole leave that for the vets to remove.

This is exactly the reason no YO, even if skilled to do so, should ever remove a shoe for a livery. The YO's insurance would not cover them for any damage/perceived damage they might cause.
Farriers do not offer 24/7/52 cover so the only alternative is the vet who does have the training and the insurance to do the job.

 

[HashRouge]

Tbh I'd have just rung my farrier (not waited for a text reply), and if I hadn't got him I'd have rung around some others that also attend the yard and found someone. I've done that before and had no issue, and have always paid appropriately (e.g double what I'd pay my normal farrier).

Arguably YO should have done the ringing around but it would have been easy enough to do from wherever you were I'd have thought.

This, though I'd be a bit peeved that the YO hadn't done this if I was on holiday and the horse was on full livery. I wouldn't expect the YO to do it, though I did have help removing a loose and badly twisted shoe from my mare years ago. Can't remember if it was a fellow livery or the YO, but we did get the shoe off as the farrier couldn't come up straight away.

 

[milliepops]

Nailing a shoe to a piece of wood is an easy way to practice.

that's a great idea for anyone unsure or lacking confidence.

I can see why people don't want a mess made of their horses feet but to me this is like other kinds of emergency first aid that are less daunting or difficult with a bit of preparation and forethought. tbh if a load of hoof is going to come off, that's been caused by the twisting in the first place, not by careful removal with a set of decent tools.

 

[rara007]

i did not have the right tools, i had no training, but i managed to remove the shoe cleanly. It is honestly not that hard.

Sometimes it’s not that hard, especially not when the shoe has already moved so 1/2 the jobs been done for you. It’s not rocket science for sure but it’s certainly harder than people realise especially the newer the shoe and the less compliant the horse. It’s not unheard of for students that have been trained (by a farrier) and had a practical practice session or two (two if they struggled in the first) to not get the shoe off in the time frame, let alone not do it safely.

Ps. There is no ‘maximum response time’ from the RCVS as there’s too many variables.

 

[NinjaPony]

I wouldn't expect them to remove the shoe. My boy has very specialist shoeing and I really wouldn't want someone just yanking it off. I would however expect them to ring around all/any farriers ASAP to get it off that same day, and a vet if necessary, and be prepared to pay through the nose for it.

 

[PapaverFollis]

Maybe because I've always had MrPF about and he is willing and able to remove shoes and has never done more damage to the hoof than the shoe had already done I don't understand the reluctance to pull one in an emergency certainly. But in the case of the OP... slipped but still quite tightly nailed shoe... I can see why getting a farrier would be optimum.

When MrT pulled his shoe half off being a dollop in the field the first week I got him we had to pull a shoe off a new to us, somewhat over excited horse, by hand in the half dark. The shoe was bent in such a way that he couldn't put his foot down properly at all. I thought he'd bust a tendon. One of us could have called back to the yard and got tools and a torch but it was a 1/4 mile at least from the field and there was no guarantee the one left behind would have been able to keep the horse still and calm for that long. If I'd been on my own I'd have had to either leave him and hope or call for help. But in that situation I think possible damage to foot by just pulling the damn thing the rest of the way off vs possible damage to foot and leg and other legs etc it was definitely better to just pull it asap.

You have to weigh up risks I guess but being able to pull a shoe if necessary or having someone about who can seems quite an important first aid type thing for me.

 

[Toby_Zaphod]

Definately not. I have seen a senior vet make a complete ba££s up of removing a shoe so no way would I expect a YO to do it. I have removed a twisted shoe myself off one of mine but I had the tools & it was an emergency. As we all know you can't just grab it with a set of 'Mole' grips & yank it off without straightening the cleats otherwise you'll pull a chunk of hoof with it,

 

[Tiddlypom]

I think it’s one of those cases where a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Not every shoe removal or horse is the same.

 

[AandK]

I am DIY so would not apply to me, but if I were on full livery, if the YO was not able to take the shoe off then I would expect them to arrange for it to be done. By farrier if not urgent, or by a vet if it needs removing PDQ. Leaving a lame horse several days is not on IMO.

 

[honetpot]

My daughter found another horse with a pulled twisted shoe, so it was standing on the nails. She stood with in the field with it until we could get the owner. It wasn't safe to move it. I know how to take a shoe off, and I have taken off my own horses. If its to prevent further harm, its classed as first aid, and I can not understand why on a pro yard that wouldn't have done it, or at least call a vet to take it off. Any infection in a hoof is a devil to clear up, I would be wondering how competent they were.
As to teaching someone how to do something, an emergency procedure, I can not understand why a qualified farrier would not think they were allowed to do that. The caveat is it's an emergency and doing nothing would potentially lead to more harm.

 

[Tiddlypom]

genuine question that I don't know the answer to, but if providing full livery for an owner who is away, where does duty of care start and finish?

The yard owner.

 

[Ambers Echo]

I think one issue is the difference between DIY, assisted and 'Full' livery. Full to me means the YO is 100% responsible for EVERYTHING - running things by me if possible but making decisions if not. Iam often in HK when I go away. I am not accessible! I used to be on a DIY/assisted livery yard and my horsey friend and I looked after each other's horses. The one time we were away at the same time I employed a freelance groom to look after my horses. Assisted livery was not good enough as that just included basic day to day chores not the responsibility for being in sole charge of my horses. I would have been happy to pay for a vet call out and I wish I had insisted on one. I am annoyed with myself that I accepted her view that the shoe had slipped but was nut hurting him - he was just pottery because the shoe felt weird. He IS lame. The nails DID hurt him. And he had them sticking into him 24 hours longer than he needed to have. And even longer had I trusted her judgement and left it till Wednesday! Full livery to me does not mean 'doing the jobs' it means taking responsibility. I won;t ever leave mine on her care again. I expecged far better from a pro rider and very experienced YO.

 

[Wheels]

That's very bad form! I would be annoyed too that they had not done something about it!