XL Bullies not banned in Scotland

[Bellaboo18]

I’m not rewriting my points multiple times to different comments I’ve stated what I’ve stated
I’m being made fun of so I don’t see a point of continuing to reply
Thank you to those who didn’t take a stab at my age or apparently my lack of critical thinking.

We have a different opinion but you're entitled to yours as much as I am mine.

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

I am a bit worried about livestock guardian type dogs. I haven't seen any/many XL bullies around here, but I have seen a few very big fluffy dogs, which I think are LSG breeds. I think the issues with them are a bit different, but I do think (as I think someone else said) they're not really suitable for the average pet home in the UK. At least one had an owner who was struggling to hold it.

There was also a period of time when Akitas were getting quite popular I think in the UK, and they are another big, powerful dog with a history of being used in fighting. They don't quite have the "look" of bull breeds but I think they arguably have a similar history?

This is why I am a bit sceptical of breed specific legislation, because really irresponsible owners can always find a big, powerful dog to train for aggression if they want to. In a way, I wonder if it should be law for all large breeds to be subject to some restrictions?

This is what I'm curious about. Mastiffs, LGBs, Rottweilers, GSDs etc etc. have been around for yonks but it's the XL bully that really took off, and did so in a short space of time. I just wonder why the other more established breeds didn't come through in such popularity (or notoriety) but the XL bully did. I suppose part of it was the explosion of dog ownership in general in recent years.

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

I think so. There's a deeper problem here than just the XL Bully. It's on the societal level and it's not going away with the XL Bully.

I've wondered if Mastiffs will be next? I could see that being a next step.

They could be but it just makes me wonder why it wasn't Mastiffs before given there already established Mastiff breeds.

Not sure I'm making my point too clearly. The bit about not having a single new breed take over from XL Bullys might just be wishful thinking on my part!

 

[webble]

But to many people they are pets.

In the UK at least you generally have to have a licence to keep such pets

 

[Cortez]

In the UK at least you generally have to have a licence to keep such pets

Don't know about UK, but here (Ireland) you need a herd or flock number for most farm animals, including horses, and a license for dogs.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

They could be but it just makes me wonder why it wasn't Mastiffs before given there already established Mastiff breeds.

Not sure I'm making my point too clearly. The bit about not having a single new breed take over from XL Bullys might just be wishful thinking on my part!

Yeah, fair point. Maybe Mastiffs are/were more expensive? I don't know why it's the XL. I guess they are beefier and more fierce looking than some Mastiffs?

 

[CorvusCorax]

I believe the problem is not so much line breeding in general causing aggression, it's line breeding to a known aggressive dog in ORDER to enhance that trait.

Yes, this. In any other breed, certainly in mine, if a dog was throwing aggression, epilepsy, HD/ED it would very likely be removed from the gene pool. Epilepsy, which was a big problem, was massively reduced in my breed because stud dog owners were honest and self-regulated, even as far back as the 60s.
One popular German stud dog has been implicated as an epilepsy risk in recent years and you can trace it back to English showlines.
And that was killing the dogs, not people.

 

[CorvusCorax]

This is what I'm curious about. Mastiffs, LGBs, Rottweilers, GSDs etc etc. have been around for yonks but it's the XL bully that really took off, and did so in a short space of time. I just wonder why the other more established breeds didn't come through in such popularity (or notoriety) but the XL bully did. I suppose part of it was the explosion of dog ownership in general in recent years.

I think social media/flashy PR/binfluencers who dress like the Peaky Blinders/sports stars have all had a part to play, TBH.

 

[[135546]]

In the UK at least you generally have to have a licence to keep such pets

Only CPH number which afaik is a matter of ringing APHA and giving them details whereupon you are given one. There are no stipulations attached; the only licensing I'm aware of in England for animal ownership (except DDA breed exemptions) is DWA, which is a whole other kettle of fish entirely involving council property inspections and insurance checks.

ETA apologies for tangent

 

[Cinnamontoast]

Yes, this. In any other breed, certainly in mine, if a dog was throwing aggression, epilepsy, HD/ED it would very likely be removed from the gene pool. Epilepsy, which was a big problem, was massively reduced in my breed because stud dog owners were honest and self-regulated, even as far back as the 60s.
One popular German stud dog has been implicated as an epilepsy risk in recent years and you can trace it back to English showlines.
And that was killing the dogs, not people.

It’s a crying shame we don’t have an organisation that could oversee breeding in that way, rather than breeders having to do it. Oh, wait, we do! What a bloody disgrace they carry on allowing registration of puppies whose parents have serious health issues and what a shame that not all breeders are in it for the benefit of the breed. I’m thinking of the Cavalier King Charles stud that’s produced over 50 litters yet is known to have syringomyelia

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

I think social media/flashy PR/binfluencers who dress like the Peaky Blinders/sports stars have all had a part to play, TBH.

Some clever marketing for sure. Big tough dog but also family pet fur baby.

I think that's what I'm getting at, they've been a huge trend/phenomena. At any point in history it could have been an existing large breed but it wasn't. This is keeping me semi optimistic that it won't necessarily translate straight over to another breed. Or at least not necessarily another large/aggressive breed at the same level.

 

[ycbm]

Some clever marketing for sure. Big tough dog but also family pet fur baby.

I think that's what I'm getting at, they've been a huge trend/phenomena. At any point in history it could have been an existing large breed but it wasn't. This is keeping me semi optimistic that it won't necessarily translate straight over to another breed. Or at least not necessarily another large/aggressive breed at the same level.

We also don't have lockdown with bored people on furlough with nowhere to go to spend their spare cash. I'm hoping that will have an effect as well. The number of dogs on the railway track walk we do which starts in a nearby town, so it's an absolute magnet for dog walkers, has been going down steadily in the last year.

I thought of you yesterday @Cinnamontoast. Not one but two completely separate men on that path, each walking four off-lead springers and all under complete voice control.
.

 

[Goldenstar]

Anyone who thinks licences are the answer would be disappointed .

 

[Wishfilly]

This is what I'm curious about. Mastiffs, LGBs, Rottweilers, GSDs etc etc. have been around for yonks but it's the XL bully that really took off, and did so in a short space of time. I just wonder why the other more established breeds didn't come through in such popularity (or notoriety) but the XL bully did. I suppose part of it was the explosion of dog ownership in general in recent years.

I think maybe in the 80s, or a bit further back, it did happen with Rottweilers and GSDs? There was also a phase around here in the mid 00s with some quite unsuitable people wanting totally black GSD type dogs. When I was in sixth form I had a Saturday job at a boarding kennels who also helped with GSD and Rottweiler rescue, and at the time the owner told me there were less issues with GSDs than there had been in the past but there were some people in the area who wanted them in different colours, especially Black, and (I think) people or a person locally were inbreeding to get the trait and it was causing some issues (mainly dog aggression, which I know can be an issue for black dogs anyway because other dogs can't read them as well). I suppose I am talking about a handful of dogs in a specific local area, but like I say I think there have been issues with GSDs at times.

I will say from my experience with both breeds is that from my experience with them is they were very trainable, and underneath they all wanted to like people, and were very receptive to praise. And ultimately, they're not fighting dogs, really- their historical job was more to see off the threat, rather than go in for the kill as it were. In some ways terriers and hunting dogs have more innate desire to actually kill things (obviously generally small furry things).

If I had the time to give to it, and the space, I would definitely own a Rottie, probably only a bitch because they tend to be smaller- I've really liked all the ones I've met and interacted with.

In terms of LGBs, I think the bigger ones we mean (because I think you could argue Rottweilers are LGBs in some senses?) are relatively recent imports to the UK, probably even more recent than the first XL bullies, although I may be wrong? The ones I am thinking of, things like Anatolian Shepherds/Caucasian Shepherds are also so big that people might think twice about keeping them in a small house with a tiny garden (maybe)? I am sure in many ways these dogs are lovely dogs, but the sheer size and power of them makes me think they should only be owned by people experienced with the breeds who know how best to train them.

I don't know enough about mastiffs to have strong thoughts about them!

 

[Cortez]

I think maybe in the 80s, or a bit further back, it did happen with Rottweilers and GSDs? There was also a phase around here in the mid 00s with some quite unsuitable people wanting totally black GSD type dogs. When I was in sixth form I had a Saturday job at a boarding kennels who also helped with GSD and Rottweiler rescue, and at the time the owner told me there were less issues with GSDs than there had been in the past but there were some people in the area who wanted them in different colours, especially Black, and (I think) people or a person locally were inbreeding to get the trait and it was causing some issues (mainly dog aggression, which I know can be an issue for black dogs anyway because other dogs can't read them as well). I suppose I am talking about a handful of dogs in a specific local area, but like I say I think there have been issues with GSDs at times.

I will say from my experience with both breeds is that from my experience with them is they were very trainable, and underneath they all wanted to like people, and were very receptive to praise. And ultimately, they're not fighting dogs, really- their historical job was more to see off the threat, rather than go in for the kill as it were. In some ways terriers and hunting dogs have more innate desire to actually kill things (obviously generally small furry things).

If I had the time to give to it, and the space, I would definitely own a Rottie, probably only a bitch because they tend to be smaller- I've really liked all the ones I've met and interacted with.

In terms of LGBs, I think the bigger ones we mean (because I think you could argue Rottweilers are LGBs in some senses?) are relatively recent imports to the UK, probably even more recent than the first XL bullies, although I may be wrong? The ones I am thinking of, things like Anatolian Shepherds/Caucasian Shepherds are also so big that people might think twice about keeping them in a small house with a tiny garden (maybe)? I am sure in many ways these dogs are lovely dogs, but the sheer size and power of them makes me think they should only be owned by people experienced with the breeds who know how best to train them.

I don't know enough about mastiffs to have strong thoughts about them!

I had rottweilers many years ago in the States, and loved them dearly; big goofy things. The breed was originally used for cattle droving and so yes would fit in the LG category. They are quite trainable and ours at least never showed the slightest aggression, but my goodness, the power! Especially in the bite (playing tug was epic).

 

[splashgirl45]

I think maybe in the 80s, or a bit further back, it did happen with Rottweilers and GSDs? There was also a phase around here in the mid 00s with some quite unsuitable people wanting totally black GSD type dogs. When I was in sixth form I had a Saturday job at a boarding kennels who also helped with GSD and Rottweiler rescue, and at the time the owner told me there were less issues with GSDs than there had been in the past but there were some people in the area who wanted them in different colours, especially Black, and (I think) people or a person locally were inbreeding to get the trait and it was causing some issues (mainly dog aggression, which I know can be an issue for black dogs anyway because other dogs can't read them as well). I suppose I am talking about a handful of dogs in a specific local area, but like I say I think there have been issues with GSDs at times.

I will say from my experience with both breeds is that from my experience with them is they were very trainable, and underneath they all wanted to like people, and were very receptive to praise. And ultimately, they're not fighting dogs, really- their historical job was more to see off the threat, rather than go in for the kill as it were. In some ways terriers and hunting dogs have more innate desire to actually kill things (obviously generally small furry things).

If I had the time to give to it, and the space, I would definitely own a Rottie, probably only a bitch because they tend to be smaller- I've really liked all the ones I've met and interacted with.

In terms of LGBs, I think the bigger ones we mean (because I think you could argue Rottweilers are LGBs in some senses?) are relatively recent imports to the UK, probably even more recent than the first XL bullies, although I may be wrong? The ones I am thinking of, things like Anatolian Shepherds/Caucasian Shepherds are also so big that people might think twice about keeping them in a small house with a tiny garden (maybe)? I am sure in many ways these dogs are lovely dogs, but the sheer size and power of them makes me think they should only be owned by people experienced with the breeds who know how best to train them.

I don't know enough about mastiffs to have strong thoughts about them!

Don’t know what it says about me but I’ve always said if I had a GSD I would like a black one. I love black dogs and have 2 black and one which started off black but is now dark grey. Interesting that you say other dogs can’t read black dogs , is that a known fact? My dogs don’t have problems with other dogs apart from the ones that are aggressive with all other dogs .

 

[skinnydipper]

Interesting that you say other dogs can’t read black dogs , is that a known fact?

Facial expressions are more difficult to read.

 

[Cortez]

Facial expressions are more difficult to read.

Very interesting. Off to Google....

 

[Errin Paddywack]

I have always found that it is dogs with black eyes that other dogs find hard to read. One of mine was very upset by a Samoyed that was looking at her. Totally unreadable expression.

 

[rara007]

This is what I'm curious about. Mastiffs, LGBs, Rottweilers, GSDs etc etc. have been around for yonks but it's the XL bully that really took off, and did so in a short space of time. I just wonder why the other more established breeds didn't come through in such popularity (or notoriety) but the XL bully did. I suppose part of it was the explosion of dog ownership in general in recent years.

Marketing and social media. It's basically a MLM scheme. You buy a dog at £xxxxK because that's what someone said it is worth, you now need to prove it's semen or offspring are worth £xxxx to keep the ball rolling. Not many breeds end up wrapped up in the same circles so don't end up with the same 'value'.

 

[skinnydipper]

I have always found that it is dogs with black eyes that other dogs find hard to read. One of mine was very upset by a Samoyed that was looking at her. Totally unreadable expression.

Your dog may have been upset not by the colour of the dog's eyes but because the dog was standing staring at her, it is an aggressive behaviour.

 

[Cortez]

I have no direct experience but am led to believe that Samoyeds are somewhat dog aggressive?

 

[Jenko109]

My lurcher has pitch black eyes. She is like the devil's spawn. She is also black in colour.

I've never found that other dogs take a dislike to her. She takes a dislike to others as she's a moody old baggage, but never the other way around

 

[[135546]]

I have no direct experience but am led to believe that Samoyeds are somewhat dog aggressive?

stand offish perhaps more than directly aggressive which others interpret as aggression imo

 

[Wishfilly]

Don’t know what it says about me but I’ve always said if I had a GSD I would like a black one. I love black dogs and have 2 black and one which started off black but is now dark grey. Interesting that you say other dogs can’t read black dogs , is that a known fact? My dogs don’t have problems with other dogs apart from the ones that are aggressive with all other dogs .

I don't think it says anything about you! I do think the black ones look gorgeous, I think it was just a bit of irresponsible breeding in this particular area.

I definitely should have added way more caveats WRT the black dog thing, so let me rephrase.

I have been told a number of times that some dogs find the facial expressions of fully black dogs harder to read. This leads to some black dogs having more negative interactions with other dogs, which in turn can make them more fearful or aggressive in their interactions. I was told this can create a vicious cycle where a black dog gives subtle back off signals, which other dogs can't read/ignore, so they have to make their reactions bigger in order to be sure that other dogs will understand them.

Obviously this doesn't apply to all dogs/all black dogs, and I can't find any peer reviewed evidence for this! So perhaps it's not true!

 

[CorvusCorax]

There was also the lockdown switch from drug dealing to dog breeding

Lots of dogs react badly to my black male.

You don't need to inbreed or linebreed to get black German Shepherds, it's recessive. It is possible for both parents to carry the gene even if they are not black themselves.

 

[splashgirl45]

I don't think it says anything about you! I do think the black ones look gorgeous, I think it was just a bit of irresponsible breeding in this particular area.

I definitely should have added way more caveats WRT the black dog thing, so let me rephrase.

I have been told a number of times that some dogs find the facial expressions of fully black dogs harder to read. This leads to some black dogs having more negative interactions with other dogs, which in turn can make them more fearful or aggressive in their interactions. I was told this can create a vicious cycle where a black dog gives subtle back off signals, which other dogs can't read/ignore, so they have to make their reactions bigger in order to be sure that other dogs will understand them.

Obviously this doesn't apply to all dogs/all black dogs, and I can't find any peer reviewed evidence for this! So perhaps it's not true!

None of my black dogs seem to have a negative effect on others but they aren’t big dogs, the terriers are miniature jack russell size and the lurcher is 22ins tts

 

[twiggy2]

To be fair as a shepherd in Scotland who has no issue with raising and slaughtering my own food for the table from quail, chickens, turkey, pheasant, duck, rabbit, hare when they were legal, sheep and the keeper providing venison. I have no idea where JBM is coming from.
I can't wrap my head around why it is ok to kill one animal and not another but for me if an animal has lived the best life it can when in my care and has a swift death then that sits fine with me, or lived wild till shot.
If people cannot bother their arse to keep a dog on a lead and muzzled and registered then the blood I am afraid in my eyes is on their hands not the governments, if the restriction was put on lurchers you can bet your bottom dollar I would jump through every hoop I had to to make sure my Maz had the best life I could give her within those restrictions.

 

[splashgirl45]

Exactly what I couldn’t understand ,I’m glad you think the same Twiggy 2

 

[Cinnamontoast]

To be fair as a shepherd in Scotland who has no issue with raising and slaughtering my own food for the table from quail, chickens, turkey, pheasant, duck, rabbit, hare when they were legal, sheep and the keeper providing venison. I have no idea where JBM is coming from.
I can't wrap my head around why it is ok to kill one animal and not another but for me if an animal has lived the best life it can when in my care and has a swift death then that sits fine with me, or lived wild till shot.
If people cannot bother their arse to keep a dog on a lead and muzzled and registered then the blood I am afraid in my eyes is on their hands not the governments, if the restriction was put on lurchers you can bet your bottom dollar I would jump through every hoop I had to to make sure my Maz had the best life I could give her within those restrictions.

I would do whatever it took to keep my lot happy. I do think they need their freedom to run (in appropriate areas and because it's what they're used to) so I'd probably spend lots of money on hiring secure fields. Saying that, I'd never be interested in acquiring a big scary looking dog. I did run away (ha, I can't run!) from a guy with the squattest xl type I've ever seen, cropped ears, whose owner was making directly for me and Mitch one day.