XL Bullies not banned in Scotland

[Cortez]

Personally I would’ve left them at the livery if I couldn’t move to grass livery or retirement and just not got another horse

Do you retire your non-productive cows when they are no longer milking or going in calf?

 

[JBM]

Do you retire your non-productive cows when they are no longer milking or going in calf?

No we don’t retire farm animals they’re not pets
When they’re not making milk they’re used for beef

 

[[135546]]

But the people whom you seem to think all xl bully owners are (ie individuals who keep them as status symbols) don't view them as pets either and for them they are there to do a job too.
So it's ok to euthanise them when they can no longer do that job (in this case because the law says it's no longer legal to keep them).

 

[JBM]

But the people whom you seem to think all xl bully owners are (ie individuals who keep them as status symbols) don't view them as pets either and for them they are there to do a job too.
So it's ok to euthanise them when they can no longer do that job (in this case because the law says it's no longer legal to keep them).

Yes they believe it’s ok to put them down but I don’t as I view them as pets

 

[TGM]

And I don’t agree with murder if you want to call it euthanasia to make it sound prettier is up to the individual

Your logic is very strange! So it is OK to 'murder' cows and sheep for meat and OK to 'murder' dairy cows once they are no longer of economic use. But not OK to 'murder' horses that no longer have an economic use and not OK to 'murder' dogs in shelters who can't be rehomed?

 

[[135546]]

Yes they believe it’s ok to put them down but I don’t as I view them as pets

so do you think it's different for pet cows/sheep etc. too?

 

[JBM]

Your logic is very strange! So it is OK to 'murder' cows and sheep for meat and OK to 'murder' dairy cows once they are no longer of economic use. But not OK to 'murder' horses that no longer have an economic use and not OK to 'murder' dogs in shelters who can't be rehomed?

Yes to me because I wouldn’t do it

so do you think it's different for pet cows/sheep etc. too?

No I don’t view them as pets

 

[[135546]]

Yes to me because I wouldn’t do it

No I don’t view them as pets

But to many people they are pets.

 

[Patterdale]

In a few years another breed will be banned because of the refusal to put policies in place for those who can own animals rather than just blaming a whole breed
I wonder what will be the 5th

Well if it’s banned, whatever the breed is, it will probably be after it has gained a reputation for killing and mauling people.

Like ALL banned breeds.

 

[JBM]

But to many people they are pets.

I’m happy for them but I’m not talking about them I’m saying how I view the subject
I wouldn’t eat a horse or a dog

 

[[135546]]

Your way of thinking is most bizarre. Presuming you are quite young because it seems to be quite an egocentric perspective but it seems to me you're saying, well I like dogs, therefore no dogs should be killed. But animals I don't like are fine.

 

[JBM]

Your way of thinking is most bizarre. Presuming you are quite young but it seems to me you're saying, well I like dogs, therefore no dogs should be killed. But animals I don't like are fine.

I love cows I see them everyday
I love sheep too but if I’m going to eat meat I have to understand what happens to them and be ok with it. I’m perfectly happy with killing them per EU welfare guidelines which is why I buy my meat from Irish farmers
Otherwise I’d be vegan or vegetarian
There is a line for me between what I see as a pet and what animals I eat and that’s ok

 

[AmyMay]

Thank you @JBM for engaging with quite a lot of heat sent in your direction (obviously I include myself in that). It’s really refreshing not to have someone have a flounce and continue to discuss their views calmly x

 

[Cortez]

If there was an Olympics for mental gymnastics our friend would be on the podium.

 

[CorvusCorax]

I think to be fair to JBM, age, experience and cynicism will catch up with her at some stage

I have read some of the stuff I posted in my late 20s and it makes me cringe

 

[Cortez]

I think to be fair to JBM, age, experience and cynicism will catch up with her at some stage

I have read some of the stuff I posted in my late 20s and it makes me cringe

I do wish critical thinking - and debating skills - were formally taught. Or if they are, taught better.

 

[[135546]]

Heatpack and a fortnight off from PE definitely justified by some of the reaches made......

 

[AmyMay]

Heatpack and a fortnight off from PE definitely justified by some of the reaches made......

And this is why people stop posting

 

[Clodagh]

I think to be fair to JBM, age, experience and cynicism will catch up with her at some stage

I have read some of the stuff I posted in my late 20s and it makes me cringe

I’m pretty sure fora weren’t invented when I was in my 20’s. Or I didn’t know how to access them.
We can all be grateful for that.

 

[Cinnamontoast]

Yes I do think killing an animal and moving it from its mother are slightly different

As another poster wrote, the distress of removing a baby reliant on its mum is much worse than a quick efficient procedure to euthanise.

I don’t currently have one but the sarcasm isn’t appreciated
I wouldn’t kill my horses that could happily retire because they can’t be ridden im aware most would

I don’t think that’s true, given how many of us have spent a fortune maintaining our retired for years horses, me included.

We do murder farm animals but we do it for a reason and I’m not putting a pretty word on it but I do see it differently than murdering a pet

But what if the animal is a pet? Plenty of cows/sheep etc in sanctuaries.

Yes they believe it’s ok to put them down but I don’t as I view them as pets

But others do. I’d love a couple of highlands as pets in future.

I’m happy for them but I’m not talking about them I’m saying how I view the subject
I wouldn’t eat a horse or a dog

Yet they are commonly eaten in France, first main course in the hotel we stayed in on a school trip last year. The horse meat market stall in Boulogne had a huge queue. Not sure if I would eat horse, possibly as it wouldn’t be mine.

I love cows I see them everyday
I love sheep too but if I’m going to eat meat I have to understand what happens to them and be ok with it. I’m perfectly happy with killing them per EU welfare guidelines which is why I buy my meat from Irish farmers
Otherwise I’d be vegan or vegetarian
There is a line for me between what I see as a pet and what animals I eat and that’s ok

Your line is possibly different to others. I’m really surprised to find out you’re a dairy farmer who thinks euthanasia is a terrible thing, ‘murder’ when you send animals off to slaughter regularly. Do you not think condemning an xl to a crap life in a rescue from which it can’t ever be re-homed is preferable to a swift death? Or that shipping it elsewhere to be re-homed by potentially someone clueless or who will treat it very poorly is better than pts?

 

[KittenInTheTree]

Some of you are very obviously trying to bait a reaction out of JBM. It's pathetic.

 

[JBM]

I’m not rewriting my points multiple times to different comments I’ve stated what I’ve stated
I’m being made fun of so I don’t see a point of continuing to reply
Thank you to those who didn’t take a stab at my age or apparently my lack of critical thinking.

 

[[135546]]

I don't think anyone is trying to bait - just trying to understand the logic/line of reasoning, or at least that was my motivation. Though I will acknowledge I know the vegan comment was potentially inflammatory, it was not bait to get a rise out of JBM. None of my comments were.
Content to live and let live regards this discussion now, anyway.

 

[CorvusCorax]

I’m not rewriting my points multiple times to different comments I’ve stated what I’ve stated
I’m being made fun of so I don’t see a point of continuing to reply
Thank you to those who didn’t take a stab at my age or apparently my lack of critical thinking.

My post was a rare case of me being nice to someone/being self deprecating. I can't speak for others.
I think it's a good thing that you asked about the pedigree and I encourage you to keep learning, it's a very interesting subject and it will open your mind and help inform your future training and management.

Don't confuse (in my case) someone disagreeing or questioning something with persecution.

 

[KittenInTheTree]

On the plus side, it's been a fabulous resource for helping me edit my User Ignore list, so cheers for that

 

[inandout]

I think I've posted this point before and can't remember the comments to it, but wonder if there will be a single new breed to replace XLs. I remember when Malinois were my most feared breed, I rarely see one and when I have they are with owners very clearly training and working them so I have never felt threatened by one. Something about XLs specifically gaining popularity in a short space of time in a way potentially other problemic or historically demonised breed don't seem to have, and haven't caused so many fatalities. There's obviously some very questionable crosses but they seem so ridiculous I wonder if they would take off in the same way. Although I do question how many XLs actually sell for the thousands quoted. I'm sure there's dodgy tax and/or laundering stuff going on because seriously who has that kind of money for a dog?! My greyhound was an absolute bargain at £175

I dont think xls will really disappear, when pits were banned there was an estimated 10000, ony 2.5k were exempted. 30 years later there are 3.3k exempted pits in the uk. Those will all of come from unexemted dogs (not neutered) so theres actually more pits now than when they banned. It cud be argues the mistake xl breeders made was naming them. If they were just call mastiff mixes staffi mixes or given loads of different names instead of being all under one breed name they likely wudnt of attracted the media attention and been banned. They might still of killed people of course but they wud jsut be generic bull breed mixes and we wud be having a different conversation about ownership.

The ones I've seen footage of going after dogs and people seem pretty drivey.

I live in a town. Modern GSDs are bred to want to be around and work with people and shouldn't spark up at random things.
Some of the top trainers/competitors in the world live in flats.
LGDs haven't had 200 years of selective breeding for different purposes so they're not that far removed from their original use.
They should be out on the plains, not stuck in someone's back yard.

Can I ask why you cited a dog you didn't have that much background knowledge of, if you're not prepared to name him?

I shudnt of used the gsd/lgd comparision as I said the rest of there drives are very different. Gsd are probabky the most legislated none bull breed in the world though, at least histroically. The history of gsds is certainly fascinating and there are some interesting comparisions. They were quite heavily line bred to a few founding studs but used a variety of bitches the emphisis was on trainable traits (so not lgd) however guarding was clearly a big part of this. Im not naming studs ect cause of the kimbo stuff.

I am a bit worried about livestock guardian type dogs. I haven't seen any/many XL bullies around here, but I have seen a few very big fluffy dogs, which I think are LSG breeds. I think the issues with them are a bit different, but I do think (as I think someone else said) they're not really suitable for the average pet home in the UK. At least one had an owner who was struggling to hold it.

There was also a period of time when Akitas were getting quite popular I think in the UK, and they are another big, powerful dog with a history of being used in fighting. They don't quite have the "look" of bull breeds but I think they arguably have a similar history?

This is why I am a bit sceptical of breed specific legislation, because really irresponsible owners can always find a big, powerful dog to train for aggression if they want to. In a way, I wonder if it should be law for all large breeds to be subject to some restrictions?

What about newfies st bernards danes and wolfhounds? Typically considered very soft dogs. What about medium sized dogs such as malinois pits and cattle dogs?

Well if it’s banned, whatever the breed is, it will probably be after it has gained a reputation for killing and mauling people.

Like ALL banned breeds.

Not true, there were no filas in uk when banned and only a few dogos and tosas. They hadnt killed anyone but still got banned. Filas tosas and dogos exist in quite small numbers in most countrys and are often premeptively banned, There are now filas in the uk. But they are not exempted.

 

[[135546]]

I think the point around St Bernards and their ilk just strengthens the genetics argument re. bullies

 

[CorvusCorax]

.

I shudnt of used the gsd/lgd comparision as I said the rest of there drives are very different. Gsd are probabky the most legislated none bull breed in the world though, at least histroically. The history of gsds is certainly fascinating and there are some interesting comparisions. They were quite heavily line bred to a few founding studs but used a variety of bitches the emphisis was on trainable traits (so not lgd) however guarding was clearly a big part of this. Im not naming studs ect cause of the kimbo stuff.

You referenced a heavily used GSD stud in the 80s known for throwing aggression/guarding. I am very interested in which dog this is. The dog will have been dead for around 30 years, I don't know what it has to do with Kimbo. As I said, you can private message if you prefer. Or you can use his name without the kennel name or initials if you think, for some reason, his connections will be following this thread.

There was obviously linebreeding on the founding stud...because there only was one. SZ 1. Studbook entry 1.
There still is heavy linebreeding in both show and working lines, show and working lines are all generally descended from the four pillars of the modern breed (70s and 80s), with most of the working lines coming from one of those four dogs.
Showlines are still heavily linebred on various Siegers and VA dogs as their placings mean they are literally 'recommended for breeding'.

In working lines, almost a separate gene pool now, there is also a lot of linebreeding to certain dogs.

Linebreeding doesn't automatically mean a dog will be unhealthy/have a bad temperament, but it can be a big problem if there is a bad apple in there, nothing is written down and no one knows what they are doing.

 

[inandout]

Im not opposed to line breeding at all. Its been referenced as a cause of aggression in xls but it exists in virtually all modern breed.

 

[Cortez]

Im not opposed to line breeding at all. Its been referenced as a cause of aggression in xls but it exists in virtually all modern breed.

I believe the problem is not so much line breeding in general causing aggression, it's line breeding to a known aggressive dog in ORDER to enhance that trait.