XL Bullies not banned in Scotland

[I'm Dun]

We aren’t cruel to our cows you may ask me any question you like in relation to it and I will answer honestly

Why do you take the baby cows away from their mums at a few days old? Theres other farms leaving the calves on the cow long term and still managing to milk. Why arent you? What happens to male dairy cows? Do they get to live till 2yr old frolicking in green meadows?

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I think I've posted this point before and can't remember the comments to it, but wonder if there will be a single new breed to replace XLs.

I think so. There's a deeper problem here than just the XL Bully. It's on the societal level and it's not going away with the XL Bully.

I've wondered if Mastiffs will be next? I could see that being a next step.

 

[Cortez]

Ok, I think it’s lovely that Irish farmers run all theirs on in settled herds until slaughter.

They don't.

 

[Cinnamontoast]

We aren’t cruel to our cows you may ask me any question you like in relation to it and I will answer honestly

At what point do you remove the calves from their mothers and what do you do with the males? Dairy farming is intrinsically hard on the animals, keeping them in calf to be milked. How do you equate this with the cruelty (so you say) of euthanasia for pet animals?

 

[JBM]

Do you send your dairy bull calves to the factory?

no we keep them until they’re 2

 

[JBM]

That’s not the point I was making.

Apologies

They don't.

We do

 

[Cortez]

We aren’t cruel to our cows you may ask me any question you like in relation to it and I will answer honestly

Well, YOU don't think you are cruel to your cows, but that I'm sure will be a matter of opinion. Unless of course you are running your calves on with their mothers and not pulling them off after first suck like every dairy farmer I know? Not culling (murdering, in your parlance) outright bull calves, or selling them off to veal production, or on to the factory? Not breeding back to back until cows' skeletons give out from calcium draw? And I suppose you have a happy little retirement paddock where all your non-productive cows go to spend their golden years after the age of 7 or 8? Please tell me that is the case, so we cannot possibly think that you are a hypocrite.

 

[JBM]

Ok I’m not sure this is the thread for this but here we go
When our cows are 2 they are served so they have their first calf at 3
Once the calf is born they stay with their mother for 2 days then moved into a calf pen. They are kept in groups of 5 unless one is sick or needs help.
Then when they can eat grass they’re moved in age appropriate herds to fields in herds of 30 and we slowly reduce milk
Then at 6 months they are separated by gender and size usually into 4 herds
All are kept until 2 when the boys are sold for beef and the girls are served

 

[Cinnamontoast]

So you take calves from their mothers at 2 days yet you think euthanasia is murder (in some cases). Do you not see the sheer dichotomy of your thinking?!

 

[splashgirl45]

Ok I’m not sure this is the thread for this but here we go
When our cows are 2 they are served so they have their first calf at 3
Once the calf is born they stay with their mother for 2 days then moved into a calf pen. They are kept in groups of 5 unless one is sick or needs help.
Then when they can eat grass they’re moved in age appropriate herds to fields in herds of 30 and we slowly reduce milk
Then at 6 months they are separated by gender and size usually into 4 herds
All are kept until 2 when the boys are sold for beef and the girls are served

So the calves are taken from their mothers at 2 days, you think that isn’t cruel and they are allowed to live until 2 years old then murdered!!!!! But it’s not ok to euthanise an old animal if I feel it’s quality of life isn’t good, or should I retire it to a field until it’s crippled , you have some very odd ideas

 

[Cortez]

Ok I’m not sure this is the thread for this but here we go
When our cows are 2 they are served so they have their first calf at 3
Once the calf is born they stay with their mother for 2 days then moved into a calf pen. They are kept in groups of 5 unless one is sick or needs help.
Then when they can eat grass they’re moved in age appropriate herds to fields in herds of 30 and we slowly reduce milk
Then at 6 months they are separated by gender and size usually into 4 herds
All are kept until 2 when the boys are sold for beef and the girls are served

So a bog standard dairy operation then. Dairy farming is not kind. I have no doubt that you are good farmers, but thinking that we (humans) are not casually cruel in the way that we use animals is blinkered at best, and is not something that can stand beside condemning the regulation of dangerous dogs.

 

[JBM]

So you take calves from their mothers at 2 days yet you think euthanasia is murder (in some cases). Do you not see the sheer dichotomy of your thinking?!

Yes I do think killing an animal and moving it from its mother are slightly different

 

[AmyMay]

So the calves are taken from their mothers at 2 days, you think that isn’t cruel and they are allowed to live until 2 years old then murdered!!!!! But it’s not ok to euthanise an old animal if I feel it’s quality of life isn’t good, or should I retire it to a field until it’s crippled , you have some very odd ideas[/B]

To be fair to @JBM that’s not what she has said.

 

[JBM]

So the calves are taken from their mothers at 2 days, you think that isn’t cruel and they are allowed to live until 2 years old then murdered!!!!! But it’s not ok to euthanise an old animal if I feel it’s quality of life isn’t good, or should I retire it to a field until it’s crippled , you have some very odd ideas

All cows for beef are killed at 2? That’s how we have burgers

thank you @Amymay in a manger

 

[splashgirl45]

So which causes the most distress to the animal, taking it from its mother thus distress to 2 animals or an injection to kill an animal who suffers a slight pin prick and then knows nothing

 

[CorvusCorax]

Xls don't feature in most competitive sports at any level cause they r not bred as particularly high drive dogs. They also are not physically suited to much of it. They aren't going to beat a collie round agility courses.
Pits r generally higher drive and more athletic.
Xls do feature in weigh pull ect.
This is no different than showline labs not winning field trials ect.
How do u define pet home? u have gsds and compete work train them. U live in the suburbs. Lgds and gsds are both large with defence drive and lack of tolerance to perceived threat. Shud lgds and gsds not be kept in suburbs or shud they only be kept in any environment by the right person. Genuine question. I know lgds and gsds have very different pack and prey drive and handler sensitivity

The ones I've seen footage of going after dogs and people seem pretty drivey.

I live in a town. Modern GSDs are bred to want to be around and work with people and shouldn't spark up at random things.
Some of the top trainers/competitors in the world live in flats.
LGDs haven't had 200 years of selective breeding for different purposes so they're not that far removed from their original use.
They should be out on the plains, not stuck in someone's back yard.

Can I ask why you cited a dog you didn't have that much background knowledge of, if you're not prepared to name him?

 

[JBM]

So which causes the most distress to the animal, taking it from its mother thus distress to 2 animals or an injection to kill an animal who suffers a slight pin prick and then knows nothing

There were studies done showing that calves separated sooner experienced less distress than calves separated later as they didn’t bond much.
Do I think that they would be better separated like foals at 6 months. Yes.
But unfortunately if we did that there would be no dairy farms or milk because we would have no income

 

[splashgirl45]

All cows for beef are killed at 2? That’s how we have burgers

thank you @Amymay in a manger

You haven’t clarified why you class killing some animals as murder yet killing cows isn’t, you can’t have it both ways, I know you didn’t advocate keeping as horse till it’s crippled but you insinuated that if it wasn’t sound enough to be ridden it should be retired, I have retired all of mine when they couldn’t be ridden but they have to be comfortable enough to have a good quality of life so I PTS when they struggled to get up or were on the brink of getting laminitis or struggled to walk across the field etc, it’s not always in a horses best interest to keep them alive…

 

[AmyMay]

There were studies done showing that calves separated sooner experienced less distress than calves separated later as they didn’t bond much.
Do I think that they would be better separated like foals at 6 months. Yes.
But unfortunately if we did that there would be no dairy farms or milk because we would have no income

I would agree that the stress to the calf would be minimal, but to the heifer it would obviously be significant. And that brings me back to trying to understand your position on xl’s - when, as I said earlier, you’re involved in Dairy farming.

But thanks for engaging in this particular area of the discussion.

 

[Jenko109]

There is a lovely local dairy to me who don't remove the calves until they are considerably older.

Dandys Ford Dairy | Romsey

Dandys Ford Dairy, Romsey. Gefällt 2.198 Mal · 74 Personen sprechen darüber · 22 waren hier. Located just outside of Romsey in Hampshire, milking only 10 cows who keep their calves with them 🐮

www.facebook.com

 

[JBM]

I would agree that the stress to the calf would be minimal, but to the heifer it would obviously be significant. And that brings me back to trying to understand your position on xl’s - when, as I said earlier, you’re involved in Dairy farming.

But thanks for engaging in this particular area of the discussion.

Sorry I mean to both both calf and cow were less stressed when separated earlier due to the lack of bond but I do understand it’s not the nicest practice and there are better ways if it could be funded

Thank you for being so nice

 

[JBM]

Th

There is a lovely local dairy to me who don't remove the calves until they are considerably older.

Dandys Ford Dairy | Romsey

Dandys Ford Dairy, Romsey. Gefällt 2.198 Mal · 74 Personen sprechen darüber · 22 waren hier. Located just outside of Romsey in Hampshire, milking only 10 cows who keep their calves with them 🐮

www.facebook.com

They only milk 10 cows

 

[Jenko109]

Th

They only milk 10 cows

Yes.

I wasn't indicating that it would work for mass dairy production. I just thought it was a nice share

 

[JBM]

You haven’t clarified why you class killing some animals as murder yet killing cows isn’t, you can’t have it both ways, I know you didn’t advocate keeping as horse till it’s crippled but you insinuated that if it wasn’t sound enough to be ridden it should be retired, I have retired all of mine when they couldn’t be ridden but they have to be comfortable enough to have a good quality of life so I PTS when they struggled to get up or were on the brink of getting laminitis or struggled to walk across the field etc, it’s not always in a horses best interest to keep them alive…

I did clarify further up somewhere

I meant as in there are horses that aren’t happy ridden but are perfectly happy retired
I don’t agree with horses being pts when they can’t be ridden but are happy retired

 

[JBM]

Yes.

I wasn't indicating that it would work for mass dairy production. I just thought it was a nice share

Ah okie sorry I misunderstood it does look a lovely farm

 

[AmyMay]

I did clarify further up somewhere

I meant as in there are horses that aren’t happy ridden but are perfectly happy retired
I don’t agree with horses being pts when they can’t be ridden but are happy retired

I’ve had two horses destroyed who could have happy and long retirements in the field. They were on livery and I wanted a horse to ride. Two horses weren’t within my budget. I am well aware of how controversial that may be (and yes I do carry some guilt). But all that aside (and pretending I couldn’t afford one retired horse), what should I have done with it?

 

[JBM]

I’ve had two horses destroyed who could have happy and long retirements in the field. They were on livery and I wanted a horse to ride. Two horses weren’t within my budget. I am well aware of how controversial that may be (and yes I do carry some guilt). But all that aside (and pretending I couldn’t afford one retired horse), what should I have done with it?

Personally I would’ve left them at the livery if I couldn’t move to grass livery or retirement and just not got another horse

 

[AmyMay]

Personally I would’ve left them at the livery if I couldn’t move to grass livery or retirement and just not got another horse

Sorry, I wasn’t clear. If I didn’t want to keep said unsound field horse (for whatever reason), what should I have done with it?

 

[splashgirl45]

I’ve had two horses destroyed who could have happy and long retirements in the field. They were on livery and I wanted a horse to ride. Two horses weren’t within my budget. I am well aware of how controversial that may be (and yes I do carry some guilt). But all that aside (and pretending I couldn’t afford one retired horse), what should I have done with it?

You did the responsible thing and didn’t pass it on to au uncertain future and if riding is the reason you have a horse that is your choice and you shouldn’t be judged. I have only been able to keep one horse so when mine was then unable to be ridden, I didn’t ride, for me owning a horse is the looking after and the relationship and riding was a bonus. We are all different and I have seen horses kept alive for too long with the owners showing off that their horse was 30 , but said horse was lame and sometimes needed help to get up , and looking down on those of us who PTS earlier when we felt quality of life wasn’t good

 

[Wishfilly]

I think I've posted this point before and can't remember the comments to it, but wonder if there will be a single new breed to replace XLs. I remember when Malinois were my most feared breed, I rarely see one and when I have they are with owners very clearly training and working them so I have never felt threatened by one. Something about XLs specifically gaining popularity in a short space of time in a way potentially other problemic or historically demonised breed don't seem to have, and haven't caused so many fatalities. There's obviously some very questionable crosses but they seem so ridiculous I wonder if they would take off in the same way. Although I do question how many XLs actually sell for the thousands quoted. I'm sure there's dodgy tax and/or laundering stuff going on because seriously who has that kind of money for a dog?! My greyhound was an absolute bargain at £175

I am a bit worried about livestock guardian type dogs. I haven't seen any/many XL bullies around here, but I have seen a few very big fluffy dogs, which I think are LSG breeds. I think the issues with them are a bit different, but I do think (as I think someone else said) they're not really suitable for the average pet home in the UK. At least one had an owner who was struggling to hold it.

There was also a period of time when Akitas were getting quite popular I think in the UK, and they are another big, powerful dog with a history of being used in fighting. They don't quite have the "look" of bull breeds but I think they arguably have a similar history?

This is why I am a bit sceptical of breed specific legislation, because really irresponsible owners can always find a big, powerful dog to train for aggression if they want to. In a way, I wonder if it should be law for all large breeds to be subject to some restrictions?