Yet another delightful rider..... not..... when will this end?

[scats]

I think the whole language of horse training needs to change. My head is full of a load of phrases drummed into me as a child which I now really dislike:

'Stop tickling him, BOOT him'.
'That's naughty give him a smack'
'Never let him win'.
'Pull his teeth out'
'Give him a bloody good hiding'
'Give him a good old pony club kick'.

Even breaking in is something I stopped using years ago in favour of starting or backing.

I am sure those instuctors were addressing passive, ineffective riders and by 'BOOT HIM' they actually meant: do somethign vaguely effective with your currently wet-noodle-like leg. BUT what did the riders take away from that?

Just recently in the Lucinda Green Foundations of XC training she repeatedly said the sequence was: "Half-halt. Whoah then: "legs on the dashboard and teeth all over the field." Suggesting leaning back, driving from the leg with full strength on the horses mouth. I'm sure she was using hyperbole to make a point, but does some ambitious rider then go away and think no force is too much force in pursuit of what you want?

I have definietely heard 'he needs to be more scared of you than the jump', and 'leather him' from an RI who I KNOW would be appalled if a horse ever was leathered or scared in one of her lessons. It's just a turn of phrase. But I think language shapes thinking and those phrases just need to be consigned to history really.

When I was teaching, I never used the words ‘kick’, ‘boot him’ etc but I was very much in the minority.

Thinking back, that’s how my instructors spoke in the 80s and early 90s. We were regularly told to ‘kick’ and ‘smack’. It just became so normal to hear.
I’ve not done any riding school teaching for a fair few years now, but I do hope things have changed.

 

[meleeka]

About the timing of AD releasing the CD video -
I wonder if AD had an inkling that something like this might come out, and was using CD as a preemptive dead cat

From what i've read this video has been released before. If she hadn't released the CJD video, it may well have stayed in the past, but she opened a pandora's box that's well and truly dropped her back in the spotlight.

 

[teapot]

When I was teaching, I never used the words ‘kick’, ‘boot him’ etc but I was very much in the minority.

Thinking back, that’s how my instructors spoke in the 80s and early 90s. We were regularly told to ‘kick’ and ‘smack’. It just became so normal to hear.
I’ve not done any riding school teaching for a fair few years now, but I do hope things have changed.

Sadly not. Though it’s a vicious circle isn’t it? Use horses that aren’t 100% to teach kids and adults to ride, horses aren’t schooled enough or physically able to be light, flexible, responsive rides, novices are novices so struggle to get these horses going, and so the ‘leg leg leg’ ‘kick kick kick’ starts.

I’ve seen coaches stand up for the horses and basically been given the choice of shut up or there’s the door

(Not all coaches, not all RSs but a lot have this issue. The best coach in the world still needs suitable horses to do the job well!)

 

[daffy44]

Just to clarify, I wasnt suggesting that anyone on this forum was using the AD video to mitigate the CD video, yesterday the AD video kept appearing and being shared on my socials, and that was the tone of the comments emerging, that worried me and thats what I was referring to, but I havent felt that from any posters on here, apologies if I have upset anyone.

 

[tristars]

The AD video shows the horse cantering for long periods without changing pace, swearing heavily, breathing heavily, this all totally
wrong
My horses work for a full hour sometimes in the arena, they finish dry, perhaps a little girth dampness on a warm day, and never whatever they do are they panting like that

The time has come to see these trainers for what they are not just the abuse but the total lack of knowledge is staggering

 

[Cortez]

The sweat is not the problem; a horse working hard in a warm country would be expected to sweat. It's the awful, ragging, relentlessly bullying, pointless riding that is the problem.

 

[shortstuff99]

Interesting absence from a certain social media poster about this video.

 

[Wishfilly]

When I was teaching, I never used the words ‘kick’, ‘boot him’ etc but I was very much in the minority.

Thinking back, that’s how my instructors spoke in the 80s and early 90s. We were regularly told to ‘kick’ and ‘smack’. It just became so normal to hear.
I’ve not done any riding school teaching for a fair few years now, but I do hope things have changed.

I think it is getting better- I know one riding school which doesn't allow their riders sticks at all unless they're training for exams, and tries to teach their riders to be soft with their legs and their hands. It is hard though, because in some cases, even though the riders are learning a better, more classical style of riding, their progress may be slower than those allowed to use artificial aids as shortcuts. So sometimes riders will move elsewhere because, especially among teenagers, it can be all about going the fastest and jumping the biggest jumps.

Sadly not. Though it’s a vicious circle isn’t it? Use horses that aren’t 100% to teach kids and adults to ride, horses aren’t schooled enough or physically able to be light, flexible, responsive rides, novices are novices so struggle to get these horses going, and so the ‘leg leg leg’ ‘kick kick kick’ starts.

I’ve seen coaches stand up for the horses and basically been given the choice of shut up or there’s the door

(Not all coaches, not all RSs but a lot have this issue. The best coach in the world still needs suitable horses to do the job well!)

I think a lot of novices, especially children, lack the leg strength to give a squeezing aid which can be felt by the horse- hence the instruction to kick etc. Years ago, I used to take hacks out in the summers when I was at uni. One of the places I worked at had some really nice, well schooled horses for lessons as well, and I'd occasionally ride them in the arena. I remember one of them, who was a genuine school master and could be ridden by anyone. I loved being able to ride and jump him, and always found him very responsive and forward- I wasn't an amazing rider by any stretch, but I was riding 3-4 hours a day, 5 days a week, so I had all the muscles to be able to avoid needing to "kick" etc. Now I ride a lot less, I know my leg aids are often a lot less subtle, especially when I get tired!

The other thing is that when you put someone who's used to kicking/smacking etc on a more forwards pony, they often get scared- it can become a bit of a vicious cycle!

Even with the right horses, I think it's still a minefield?

At this sort of end, I think the answer is probably more lunge lessons, more investment in getting "riding fit" and not progressing until you can control your body and give decent aids- but a lot of clients find that boring, especially when other schools seem to offer faster results.

 

[HopOnTrot]

Poor horse, to be fair I’d be on my knees cantering for 27 minutes.

DD (6) is in PC and I’ve always found instructors to be very sensitive towards pony’s mouths and sides and very grumbly about the use of whips.

 

[Miss_Millie]

Interesting absence from a certain social media poster about this video.

Dressage Hub?

 

[thatsnotmyname]

I wish she got buried.

I don’t know if this has been said but I actually found this one worse than the CDJ video. (Not that the CDJ one was better, just this one was worse!!)

 

[shortstuff99]

Dressage Hub?

Who must have been listening as a post has appeared but not one you would think

 

[TPO]

Who must have been listening as a post has appeared but not one you would think

Just looked and that's a hot take!

 

[ester]

yes lol

 

[nikicb]

I can’t get my head around anyone starting a conversation with, or engaging with, DH. It’s never going to end well.

 

[daffy44]

I can’t get my head around anyone starting a conversation with, or engaging with, DH. It’s never going to end well.

Also, who looks at that video and says yes, I trained her????

 

[nikicb]

Also, who looks at that video and says yes, I trained her????

I think, like PH, she is just incredibly naive about how social media works. I can’t think of any other reason.

 

[daffy44]

I think, like PH, she is just incredibly naive about how social media works. I can’t think of any other reason.

No, me neither. If you had to admit you trained AD, at the very least you'd hope that person would say they didnt train her to ride/behave like that! To engage with Dressage Hub and admit you trained such an abusive rider seems extraordinary to me.

 

[ester]

Also, who looks at that video and says yes, I trained her????

I had to read it twice.

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

No, me neither. If you had to admit you trained AD, at the very least you'd hope that person would say they didnt train her to ride/behave like that! To engage with Dressage Hub and admit you trained such an abusive rider seems extraordinary to me.

It is odd. Maybe to do with deflection from CDJ is my guess. I vaguely remember in the Olympic commentary the strongest words she seemed to have on the whole thing were about the person laughing in the video, possibly alluding to knowing more about it. Guess we know why now.

 

[moosea]

I think that's probably one of the worst videos I've seen.
That poor horse is so obviously exhausted and struggling yet that arrogant bi*ch takes her legs away and boots him with the spurs.

So sad to watch.

 

[Archangel]

I think that's probably one of the worst videos I've seen.
That poor horse is so obviously exhausted and struggling yet that arrogant bi*ch takes her legs away and boots him with the spurs.

So sad to watch.

I wonder how many horses she's involved with have suffered that sort of treatment.

 

[scats]

It is odd. Maybe to do with deflection from CDJ is my guess. I vaguely remember in the Olympic commentary the strongest words she seemed to have on the whole thing were about the person laughing in the video, possibly alluding to knowing more about it. Guess we know why now.

I remember her referring to the laughing person far more than she did the actions of CDJ. This explains that then.

 

[Miss_Millie]

It would seem that new information suggests the horse in the CDJ whipping video belonged to Natasha Althoff, Alicia Dickinson's business partner and 'BFF'. Having read more about them both online, they seem to be a couple of con artists, charging an extortionate amount for online content which is utter fluff. There are several stories of people being conned out of their money and about Alicia's abuse to both horses and humans at her facility.

I was horrified by the CDJ video, but oh the absolute hypocrisy of this evil woman. Hopefully she'll get what's coming to her sooner rather than later.

 

[Ambers Echo]

I’m lost - who’s the laughing person on the CJD video and what did AD say about it? I didn’t watch any of AD’s commentary on the video and don’t quite get the relationships between everyone.

 

[scats]

I’m lost - who’s the laughing person on the CJD video and what did AD say about it? I didn’t watch any of AD’s commentary on the video and don’t quite get the relationships between everyone.

AD is the laughing person.

 

[Dave's Mam]

I’m lost - who’s the laughing person on the CJD video and what did AD say about it? I didn’t watch any of AD’s commentary on the video and don’t quite get the relationships between everyone.

AD is the laughing person in the CDJ video. The voice is clear.

 

[Ambers Echo]

What and she then criticised the laughing?

 

[scats]

What and she then criticised the laughing?

No, in the Olympic commentary of the dressage, Nicky Pasco kept bringing any reference of the CJD scandal back to the laughing person. Turns out she knew exactly who the laughing person was and she clearly wasn’t suprised by it. She used to train AD.

 

[meleeka]

I’m lost - who’s the laughing person on the CJD video and what did AD say about it? I didn’t watch any of AD’s commentary on the video and don’t quite get the relationships between everyone.

AD is the alleged person who leaked the CJD video, to "save dressage" and is the person laughing in that video. I think it's pretty obvious now (if the above is true) that it was nothing to do with saving dressage and everything to do with a personal grudge. People in glass houses really shouldn't throw stones...