Ambers Echo
Still wittering on
Oh I see. AD sounds like a real piece of work. Thanks for explaining x
Yet another delightful rider..... not..... when will this end?
- Thread starter nikicb
- Start date
HopOnTrot
Well-Known Member
Can anyone link DH’s response? My FB won’t log in but I can follow links!
meleeka
Well-Known Member
Dressage Hub Official
Nicky Pasco the British commentator for the Olympics. Was Alicia Dickenson's trainer. She either trained her to be abusive or allowed her to train like that. Where is the why now crowd now? *Note: I...
www.facebook.com
ThreeFurs
Well-Known Member
Its only 3.5 mins of revoltment. AD gets on and basically screws the horse's buttons totally, by both spurring, whipping, and yanking on the double, to no effect.
ThreeFurs
Well-Known Member
Exactly.
ThreeFurs
Well-Known Member
Yes, the w/b mare in the cdj video is Natasha Althoff's 'Gretchen'.
Reacher
Well-Known Member
Has there been any comment from Natasha Althoff? Are they still business partners? I (briefly) paid for her online content a couple of years ago
sbloom
Well-Known Member
No, you don't understand it because you don't suffer freeze or fawn in these kinds of awful moments. The brain is trying to SAVE THE LIFE of the person in the situation, it shuts down, there is no option of conscious thought changing that, in the moment. Telling people who go through that to "take a good hard look at themselves" is failing to understand the human brain. Different people have different brains, and many people who have been through this will feel all sorts of awful guilt, way beyond what you would imagine. Their reaction may come from their own previous trauma, and in fact is highly likely to.
Trauma and the Freeze Response: Good, Bad, or Both?
The common response to a provocation that's extraordinarily threatening is the freeze response, which is how you react when something leaves you paralyzed in fear.
Fawn Response: Adding to The Fight, Flight, or Freeze Framework
Fawning — also called please-and-appease — is a trauma response that can have deep impacts on your relationships and your sense of self.
psychcentral.com
Miss_Millie
Well-Known Member
Natasha is still the owner of Your Riding Success. It seems increasingly likely that she is complicit and involved. Just further evidence that competitive dressage is rife with abusive manipulators.
SEL
Well-Known Member
Thankfully I think very few of us have been in such an awful situation to know how we'd react, but I think there is a greater understanding now of the "freeze" response. It was awful how many assault victims were diminished because the courts didn't recognise it - you didn't fight back so you can't have suffered.No, you don't understand it because you don't suffer freeze or fawn in these kinds of awful moments. The brain is trying to SAVE THE LIFE of the person in the situation, it shuts down, there is no option of conscious thought changing that, in the moment. Telling people who go through that to "take a good hard look at themselves" is failing to understand the human brain. Different people have different brains, and many people who have been through this will feel all sorts of awful guilt, way beyond what you would imagine. Their reaction may come from their own previous trauma, and in fact is highly likely to.
Trauma and the Freeze Response: Good, Bad, or Both?
The common response to a provocation that's extraordinarily threatening is the freeze response, which is how you react when something leaves you paralyzed in fear.www.psychologytoday.com
Fawn Response: Adding to The Fight, Flight, or Freeze Framework
Fawning — also called please-and-appease — is a trauma response that can have deep impacts on your relationships and your sense of self.
sbloom
Well-Known Member
And many would say that the rider isn't in the same position as a victim of sexual assault, but the brain isn't always a logical place, it's no different to horses thinking plastic bags will kill them. Survival is everything. If the brain was more logical then the freeze response might not exist.
Ambers Echo
Still wittering on
Exactlyl! And how many domestic abuse victims are blamed for staying in, or returning to abusive relationships. And how many mothers are blamed/shamed for not protecting their kids from violent partners.
But it;s not just trauma victims. It's humans! Read up on Milgram's Obedience studies for a facinating account of how people behave in power-imbalance situations. The subjects believed they were taking part in a study on the impact of punishment on learning. In fact they were taking part in a study on obedience to authority figures. People were randomly allocated to leaners or teachers. In fact all the slips of paper drawn said teachers and the 'learners' were all actors. So all the actual subjects were teachers. The 'learners' had electrodes attached to them and the teachers were instructed to ask a series of questions and to give increasingly strong electric shocks to leaners, who were in another room and not visible. The research question was 'at what point do teachers refuse'. In reality they didn't - they carried on shocking people despite screams, and when the 'leaners' fell silent and no longer responded, they were still shocking them with levels of electricity saying things like 'danger- severe shock' on the button. If they said they wanted to stop a man in a white coat (the authority figure) told them it was important for the experiement that they continue. But there was of course no obligation to carry on. These were volunteers who could at any point have got up and left. They didn't because when people are in such situaitons, and the others around them are acting like everything is fine, we are just so bad at going against the grain.
When you describe the expriment almost everyone claimes that OF COUSRE they would refuse but everyone carried on to at leat 300 volts and most carried on to the end.
Of course I wish people would/could be more assertive (including me!) but those condemning people are a HUGE part of the problem. Feel free to carry on doling out criticism to owners & riders for not advocating for their horses, but by doing so you are complicit in the processes keeping people silent, and therefore in these abuses carrying on.
Ambers Echo
Still wittering on
ETA of course no actual shocks were administered. But the teachers thought the shocks were real.
Miss_Millie
Well-Known Member
I was once in a similar situation with one of my horses (on a much lesser scale) where an instructor, who was recommended to me by a friend and who I thought was trustworthy, told me to punish her for not understanding what I was asking. I said no and continued to ask my horse politely. The instructor then grabbed the whip out of my hand (which I was using as a guide, not a weapon) and hit my horse hard a couple of times.
It all happened within a moment, but I could have yanked the whip back from her or screamed at her to stop - instead I froze. I will never forget the fear and pain reaction in my horse and I'll never forgive myself for not stopping the witch from hitting her, but I went into a freeze response. I couldn't even call this person out, because they were a fellow livery - a longterm one and part of the popular crowd - to speak against this person would have almost definitely resulted in me being kicked off of the yard, and at the time I had no-where else to go. Being made 'homeless' is a very real fear when you don't have your own land and you're on a hostile yard with an unpredictable YO who has a reputation for flippantly kicking people off over petty matters.
I protected my horse by never having a lesson with her again, and long-term by taking her off that yard, but I don't think people should be so quick to judge those who don't speak up. I'd like to think that on my own turf I would have told the instructor to get the hell out, but when you're at the mercy of so many different people in this world of horses, it isn't always as straightforward as standing up for what you believe in.
In the AD incident, the rider and horse were undoubtedly both victims.
It all happened within a moment, but I could have yanked the whip back from her or screamed at her to stop - instead I froze. I will never forget the fear and pain reaction in my horse and I'll never forgive myself for not stopping the witch from hitting her, but I went into a freeze response. I couldn't even call this person out, because they were a fellow livery - a longterm one and part of the popular crowd - to speak against this person would have almost definitely resulted in me being kicked off of the yard, and at the time I had no-where else to go. Being made 'homeless' is a very real fear when you don't have your own land and you're on a hostile yard with an unpredictable YO who has a reputation for flippantly kicking people off over petty matters.
I protected my horse by never having a lesson with her again, and long-term by taking her off that yard, but I don't think people should be so quick to judge those who don't speak up. I'd like to think that on my own turf I would have told the instructor to get the hell out, but when you're at the mercy of so many different people in this world of horses, it isn't always as straightforward as standing up for what you believe in.
In the AD incident, the rider and horse were undoubtedly both victims.
tristars
Well-Known Member
Making it illegal to ride with spurs sounds a great idea this morning
And I have done fawning, freezing and standing up, speaking up, the most repercussions came from speaking up, it's easy to freeze, but speaking up means you are willing to take the flack and risk being wrong, putting the needs of another before risk to yourself, being ridiculed on a forum, for example
And I have done fawning, freezing and standing up, speaking up, the most repercussions came from speaking up, it's easy to freeze, but speaking up means you are willing to take the flack and risk being wrong, putting the needs of another before risk to yourself, being ridiculed on a forum, for example
myheartinahoofbeat
Well-Known Member
I hate that this whole thing is turning into a who said what, who has a beef with whom and personal vendettas etc. The tittle tattle is irrelevant. People and governing bodies must not lose sight of the ABUSE of the horses which has to be punished.
ThreeFurs
Well-Known Member
Its not tittle tattle, its people who've had abusive coaches like AD, talking about how complicated their feelings are. So that means they're thinking, and they're going to change. And that's valid.
I personally know the barn owner in the AD abuse video, the BO is a local well known dressage rider, who I've lessoned with, but after my gear check experience this year, that I posted above about, and checking the flanks of one of her own horses, I won't be having anything to do with again, ever.
I don't know, in the Roger East video, personally, the horse in question, or the owner/rider, but there's obvs some fellow South Australians on here who do know who they were, since they were at the same AD clinic at a venue 30 mins away from me. I think we all need to be careful, as the BO is litigious.
Down here we're a smaller horse community than NSW or Vic, but our superpower tends to be eventing. We had three, now two Olympic medalists are short drives from where I live. I wouldn't trust either of them to pour piss out of a boot, and one has already been suspended for horse abuse, then that lifted. I would have thought that was the direction that this was coming from, so I'm stunned sad and shocked that the CDJ debacle has such long tentacles. I get the EA SA notifications about clinics, but I never clocked this one. We usually get good people, Martin Plewa, Brett Parbery [coach to Aus Olymp Team]. Not f**knuckles like AD.
I suppose, with the #metoo for sport horses, where the social license says, every horse you get on, at whatever level, deserves the full remit of your commitment to their well-being, physical and psychological, has simply shown, at least to me, that abuse can happen anywhere.
Maybe in the prof coaching scenario we need coded safe words, like in non vanilla sex? ie You get on my horse, you ride it sweetly [green], you start spurring kicking and pulling, yellow [too much]; the horse is distressed, sweating, eye rolling, kicking, [red, you get the f**ck off my horse]?
Upthecreek
Well-Known Member
So what is the answer? How is abuse ever going to be stopped if people can’t/won’t intervene when they see it happening to their own animals? I am critical of these people, because they are the same people calling for action from sports governing bodies, who only actually hear about a tiny fraction of the abuse that is going on. If more people challenged what they are seeing surely some of these so called professionals would have to re-think whether their ‘training methods’ are acceptable? Particularly if they lost clients and therefore income?
The horse’s owner was stood there for over 20 minutes watching someone beast the life out of her horse that had just come back into work. Unlikely that she didn’t intervene due to past trauma that she had suffered. More likely it was due to not wanting to cause a scene or question a professional. Let’s be honest about that.
I hate confrontation and I will actively avoid it. It makes me feel horribly uncomfortable, but I will do it in a situation where someone that I am responsible for who can’t speak up for themselves is being physically or emotionally harmed.
If you can’t advocate for your horse or your children to protect them from harm, don’t put them in situations with people that might treat them badly because these experiences can cause lifelong emotional damage.
sbloom
Well-Known Member
Trauma is not the only cause of the freeze or fawn response. Please read the links I posted to try to understand other people's perspectives and experiences.
misst
Well-Known Member
I have no past trauma but froze. I honestly thought for a a few minutes I was misunderstanding what was going on. Then, yes, others were around (also standing looking rather shocked) and I was at PC training session and I didn't know how to be "that" person. It seemed that she was the one everyone raved about, she had family connections higher up the PC ladder. My daughter was ambitious and I was frightened to upset her development. I did address it later with a senior person and moved clubs but actually it still affected things. I am upset 20 years later that I allowed this to happen but it doesn't stop me from calling for professional bodies to stop abuse. Would I stand aside next time - I sincerely hope not - but until you are in that situation you cannot understand how "frozen" you can be.
equinerebel
Well-Known Member
This is all getting a little too victim blamey for me. Freeze is every bit as valid an evolutionary response as fight and flight are. With respect, you have no idea of the owners past and what may have shaped them to respond the way they did in that specific situation.
We’d all love to say we’d do the “right thing”, but then you have situations where people freeze when they know a murderer is in the house and their friends or family are in active danger etc. I’m obviously not using that as a direct comparison, but as a recent example of a high profile freeze response that a lot of people do not understand and are highly critical of a witness for.
Ultimately, the owner is not the one who abused a horse.
We’d all love to say we’d do the “right thing”, but then you have situations where people freeze when they know a murderer is in the house and their friends or family are in active danger etc. I’m obviously not using that as a direct comparison, but as a recent example of a high profile freeze response that a lot of people do not understand and are highly critical of a witness for.
Ultimately, the owner is not the one who abused a horse.
ramsaybailey
Well-Known Member
Yes let's not loose sight of who truly is the problem
Upthecreek
Well-Known Member
I have read them, thank you. I just don’t agree that’s why most people fail to act in situations like we are discussing here. I don’t think we can assume that most people are affected by the freeze or fawn response. Some people will be of course, but I think for most people it will be wanting to avoid an uncomfortable situation and being made to look stupid by a professional, rather than genuine fear that they will be attacked. That was a very long time for the horse’s owner to remain frozen, it was not a single moment in time.
Ultimately the person abusing the horse is responsible for what happened. I just feel passionately that we all have to play our part in stopping abusive behaviour or nothing will ever change. Change is everyone’s responsibility, nobody is going to make it happen for us.
tristars
Well-Known Member
Then there is perceptual defence
sbloom
Well-Known Member
I'll try and explain it again.
The brain is not working through logic, it's the reptilian brain, or whatever you want to call it. The brain thinks it's under threat, whether it is a genuine threat or not. The brain seeks a way, subconsiously, to help the person survive the situation. The person is not doing it consciously.
Then add in all the conscious stuff that some people deal with better than others - the horsey community, somewhere safe to keep your horse, someone to help you with your horse....so many things come under threat when we speak out and this piles on top of the rider and makes it more likely they'll go into a freeze or fawn response.
"There but for the grace of God" is a good reaction, instead of blame to add to the victim's shame.
Change does need to happen, and the more we talk about how this is NOT acceptable in any way shape of form, the more than rider might have NOT gone into her reptilian brain, and been able to stand up for her horse. No-ones saying this is a forever situation, it's just that it's real, and much more common than you think. I'm a gobsh*te some of the time, other times my people pleasing, which is perhaps a more moderate form of fawn, can raise its ugly head. Even in my early to mid thirties I've carried on in a lesson with techniques I didn't like much, but they knew better than me. No, it wasn't outright abuse in the same way as these videos, but now, to me, it's not much better.
SaddlePsych'D
Well-Known Member
One of the things we can do to play our part is create a culture where people can feel able to speak up. Even if it's not at the time, and even if they didn't say or do what we would have done (or like to think we would have done) at the time. The owner of this horse could well have just carried on keeping quiet. I think I would have if I knew I would be met with 'well why didn't you say something at the time'. We don't know this person's circumstances and what they may be facing in speaking out now or what kept them from doing so at the time.
I am someone in the horsey world with very little influence or power (as I imagine many of us are), so I absolutely do expect the various equestrian governing bodies to take action if I report a concern. I can pick which riding school I use to the best of my knowledge of their horse care and practices, which events/venues to volunteer at or whether to volunteer at all, which brands to buy from but that's a drop in the ocean.
equinerebel
Well-Known Member
In a trainer/student situation, you also always have a power dynamic at play, the effect that has on people really cannot be understated.
To implement change, we need to create an environment where people can speak up without fear of being harshly judged on the internet. Because you will always have a freeze response in people.
To implement change, we need to create an environment where people can speak up without fear of being harshly judged on the internet. Because you will always have a freeze response in people.
southerncomfort
Well-Known Member
I think it can be an age thing too.
When you're young and self conscious, the last thing you want to do is draw negative attention towards yourself. Putting your head above the parapet is scary.
As I've got older I care very much less what people think of me, and I speak my mind more freely.
I think anyone who speaks out and exposes someone, especially a 'name', is exceptionally brave and should be applauded, not vilified.
When you're young and self conscious, the last thing you want to do is draw negative attention towards yourself. Putting your head above the parapet is scary.
As I've got older I care very much less what people think of me, and I speak my mind more freely.
I think anyone who speaks out and exposes someone, especially a 'name', is exceptionally brave and should be applauded, not vilified.
Michen
Well-Known Member
I totally agree. There is no one in the world that I would allow to ride any horse of mine like that. The owner is utterly spineless to have let it happen and IMO shouldn’t be responsible for any horses as she clearly cannot advocate for them.
Michen
Well-Known Member
Deleted as not worth the agro