Yet another delightful rider..... not..... when will this end?

[ramsaybailey]

Genuinely just read a comment on FB saying we shouldn't be so quick to judge as videos can be doctored.

There you go right there...turning a blind eye and refusing to believe the evidence right in front of your eyes. That there is why equestrian sport is an absolute mess.

This attitude drives me insane! People are seemingly terrified of 'losing the sport' so much so that they deny evidence in front of them.

But how can they be scared to lose any 'sport' that involves this behaviour!! I just don't understand how everyone involved isnt screaming for change

 

[misst]

Here is the (very well documented) piece which Eventing Nation published today:

Andrew McConnon Under Investigation for Horse Abuse Allegations: The Timeline, the Facts, and What This Means for Us All - Eventing Nation - Three-Day Eventing News, Results, Videos, and Commentary

After videos surfaced on social media on September 7 depicting, allegedly, CCI5* rider Andrew McConnon hitting horses in the face, both with open hands and with a whip or a rein, questions and rumors quickly

eventingnation.com

That is a really helpful and well balanced article. Thank you.

 

[sbloom]

I think the whole language of horse training needs to change. My head is full of a load of phrases drummed into me as a child which I now really dislike:

'Stop tickling him, BOOT him'.
'That's naughty give him a smack'
'Never let him win'.
'Pull his teeth out'
'Give him a bloody good hiding'
'Give him a good old pony club kick'.

Even breaking in is something I stopped using years ago in favour of starting or backing.

I am sure those instuctors were addressing passive, ineffective riders and by 'BOOT HIM' they actually meant: do somethign vaguely effective with your currently wet-noodle-like leg. BUT what did the riders take away from that?

Just recently in the Lucinda Green Foundations of XC training she repeatedly said the sequence was: "Half-halt. Whoah then: "legs on the dashboard and teeth all over the field." Suggesting leaning back, driving from the leg with full strength on the horses mouth. I'm sure she was using hyperbole to make a point, but does some ambitious rider then go away and think no force is too much force in pursuit of what you want?

I have definietely heard 'he needs to be more scared of you than the jump', and 'leather him' from an RI who I KNOW would be appalled if a horse ever was leathered or scared in one of her lessons. It's just a turn of phrase. But I think language shapes thinking and those phrases just need to be consigned to history really.

Thank you AE. I see some cognitive dissonance on here but mostly keep quiet, not because I'm scared of the effect on the real me, as I don't hide who I am, but because I'm tired of the fight, of seeing ad hominem attacks against those pointing out the problems.

You pick on a trainer who is absolutely well known, respected, and has been for many years, but is being left behind current thinking. We all loved her back in the day (though I'm a Ginny fan through and through!) and we followed her lead. No longer. We cannot simply accept what someone says because of their profile, their experience, their success. To be asked to show ourselves riding and "doing better" than the successful competitive rider being criticised. We do need to do better, and language is a BIG part of that, so I do think policing language is appropriate in many circumstances.

I always laugh at James O'Brien when, over the last few years, he picks out a Tory MP with a newly acquired public profile and he says how decent they seem, how perhaps they can buck the trend and help the country. And then we wait, and it always arrived, the moment where he realised he'd had rose tinted glasses again. We will face nasty moments from all our competitive idols, and some non-competitive and we all have to face those and work out how we deal with them, in practice in terms of punishment which is not in our control, but in how we choose to relate to that moment in terms of our personal behaviour and what we put out to the world. We must be held to account, our horses are counting on it.

I strongly believe that we also cannot dismiss the accusers because of aspects of them personally, whatever their past, their possible mental health issues (when did it become acceptable to virtually diagnose someone online?) etc. Address the message, not the messenger, equally, choose your own photos carefully, caption them accurately, explain why you think something is correct or incorrect, we need grown up discussions. And share good work, here's some for anyone wanting to see beauty in equestrianism https://www.facebook.com/SonjaWeberReiten/photos_by


Edited to add - if you're on FB etc a fair bit it's a useful exercise to see where people you admire are falling in the debates, which side are they one, what work do they show? This negates the need for us all to show our own prowess or feel we need to, if you feel Mrs X does fabulous correct work and she seems to be on a particular side, and so and so who has a horse where you can plainly SEE the posture, musculature and movement issues supports the other side, then it's clearer where your thoughts lie. We do need to be trying to bring the two sides together, 100%, rather than taking sides, but when heels are being dug in progress is painfully slow and when it comes to the animals we love we're bound to be a little recalcitrant.

 

[Miss_Millie]

I'm struggling to get this poor horse out of my head. There should be a zero tolerance policy when it comes to abuse - he should lose his career, his right to own horses and any financial benefits he has gained from that world, sponsors etc. It's clear that this is not a one-time thing (not that it would make it any better) - this man is an abuser through and through. More stories will surface I'm sure.

 

[myheartinahoofbeat]

From the EventingNation article:

There exists a fine line between firm training and discipline and flat-out abuse, and over the years, that line has shifted incrementally and constantly. I don’t have an answer for how to fix the problem of what is or isn’t okay, but I do know this: the starting point is an honest reevaluation of our methods, and owning, even if just in a frank conversation with ourselves, where we’ve personally gone wrong in the past. Only then do we stand a chance of doing better – and we must, too, remember that outside of our small world, there’s no quantifiable reason for any of this to exist, which quickly undermines any argument that any specific method is the only way to train a horse to do something. If there isn’t a strong argument for why the horse should need to know how to do the thing in the first place, how can we argue that abusive methods are a justifiable way to get there?

I think this is absolutely spot on
Is there actually any moral difference between some of the stuff horses are made to do in the name of sport and animals doing tricks in a circus?

I’ve always ways thought this about Grand Prix dressage and circuses especially the doing it to music thing

 

[Ifmpw]

I did visit the COTH and I am stunned - and sickened to the pit of my stomach.
How on earth could anyone whip a horse that badly to cause such welts
Why would you tie a horses head to its leg - that is the cruelest thing I have every seen - I simply cannot comprehend the sick mind of this person.
Disgusted is not a word strong enough
I would call him an animal but they are better than that

 

[helffrich]

I did visit the COTH and I am stunned - and sickened to the pit of my stomach.
How on earth could anyone whip a horse that badly to cause such welts
Why would you tie a horses head to its leg - that is the cruelest thing I have every seen - I simply cannot comprehend the sick mind of this person.
Disgusted is not a word strong enough
I would call him an animal but they are better than that

Right. Sickening. Haunting...
And no, don't call him an animal.

 

[ThreeFurs]

Also reported on in Horse Sport magazine. The author of this piece is Pippa Cuckson, who used to report for Horse and Hound (maybe she still does).

Leaked Videos Force USEF to Reveal Rider is Already Under Investigation

While Andrew McConnon competed at Burghley last weekend, images of him allegedly abusing horses on private property were going viral.

horsesport.com

Cuckson wrote the well researched and I thought brave piece on HS on Alicia Dickinson, the cdj video whistleblower. Must have had Legal back on their anxiety medication.

 

[Smitty]

What does COTH stand for please?

 

[TPO]

What does COTH stand for please?

Chronicle of the horse

It's a website and forum, basically the American H&H/HHO

 

[Smitty]

Chronicle of the horse

It's a website and forum, basically the American H&H/HHO

Thank you

 

[I'm Dun]

What does COTH stand for please?

chronicle of the horse

 

[meleeka]

And another one

Roger East

Viewer discretion warning. This video shows a clearly distressed horse and highlights the horse welfare of the alleged person laughing in the Charlotte Dujardin video. These are the riding skills...

www.facebook.com

 

[nikicb]

And another one

Roger East

Viewer discretion warning. This video shows a clearly distressed horse and highlights the horse welfare of the alleged person laughing in the Charlotte Dujardin video. These are the riding skills...

www.facebook.com

That's utterly heartbreaking.

 

[ester]

been expecting something but somehow everything manages to be worse than you think it’s going to be

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

I can't remember what happened with the AD thing - was it verified who she actually was in relation to the CDJ video? I remember she denied it was her filming or her horse, or something?

Not that it particularly matters. I found that video incredibly upsetting to watch. They can all get in the bin together as far as I'm concerned.

Eta - I bet AD won't get any of the #bekind that CDJ got

 

[TPO]

And another one

Roger East

Viewer discretion warning. This video shows a clearly distressed horse and highlights the horse welfare of the alleged person laughing in the Charlotte Dujardin video. These are the riding skills...

www.facebook.com

As horrific as it is I'm glad it's finally been released. Irrefutable evidence of how cruel and manipulative AD is.

Poor, poor horse

 

[cauda equina]

I don't get why the owner didn't speak up
There isn't the 'big name' defence like in the CDJ case, although I wouldn't be surprised if AD is as hard on humans as she is on horses

 

[meleeka]

I don't get why the owner didn't speak up
There isn't the 'big name' defence like in the CDJ case, although I wouldn't be surprised if AD is as hard on humans as she is on horses

That's been mentioned, that she's a horrible individual all round.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

People feel paralysed. Owner was clearly distraught. I once watched a big name trainer bully my kids and reduce them to tears. His behaviour was utterly unacceptable and I sat there and let it happen. I’ve always been ashamed of that but it’s so hard calling out a ‘top’ pro if you lack confidence and /or hate confrontation.

I do stand up for what’s right but I usually need time to process, plan what to say, psych myself up. I find it almost impossible to do it in the moment.

 

[cauda equina]

This woman wasn't a top pro though
From what I can gather she's great at self promotion and charges huge fees for lessons but doesn't have any sort of competition record

I hope this will end her 'career' as thoroughly as she ended CDJ's

 

[ester]

It’s all relative though isn’t it re pro vs you.

 

[nikicb]

This woman wasn't a top pro though
From what I can gather she's great at self promotion and charges huge fees for lessons but doesn't have any sort of competition record

I hope this will end her 'career' as thoroughly as she ended CDJ's

She's still a 'name' though, and that can be daunting. The owner was obviously in pieces afterwards.

 

[Ifmpw]

And another one

Roger East

Viewer discretion warning. This video shows a clearly distressed horse and highlights the horse welfare of the alleged person laughing in the Charlotte Dujardin video. These are the riding skills...

www.facebook.com

Why would you do this ?
It just shows you the good nature of that poor poor horse
I wonder why horses nap into schools sometimes - I think I have my answer
I cant believe the owner did not walk in and demand her to stop.
- just how could you let this happen for 2 mins let alone 20 ?
Who the hell is this sick rider - and she was paid to do this ?

 

[Ample Prosecco]

Yep - apparently charges $800 (USD) for a single lesson despite having no coaching qualifications. Who pays that? Crazy.

 

[ihatework]

Yep - apparently charges $800 (USD) for a single lesson despite having no coaching qualifications. Who pays that? Crazy.

What’s that, $10 for each strike?

 

[cauda equina]

An expensive lesson overall, with the owner forking out $3000 for the damage to the arena

 

[Cloball]

I don't even understand what she's trying to achieve. There is no semblance of understanding of how horses learn it's abuse for the sake of ego and arrogance.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

It’s just temper and ego: - don’t you dare protest, and if you do I’ll ride you into the ground.

 

[ester]

And having the last word