Yet another delightful rider..... not..... when will this end?

[Miss_Millie]

These are a couple of testimonials from people who had lessons with and worked for Alicia in the past. I understand people's frustration at other people not speaking up and acting when they see abuse, but the reality of being exposed to such narcissistic and toxic people is that sometimes you feel completely helpless - they will twist your words, threaten you, turn everyone against you, maybe even hurt your animal as an act of revenge. When you have spent enough time with someone this unhinged and unpredictable, you will understand that it's not as simple as doing the right thing.

Remember the thread on Wayne Garrick a while ago? He was taking people's horses on schooling livery for £££ and starving them. When this became widespread public information, lots of people's stories emerged of how he threatened them into silence.

I truly do understand people's upset on behalf of the horse (have not watched this specific video as I know it is horrific and can't take watching any more of that kind of thing right now) - but having been around some absolute psychos in my time, I also understand people freezing, feeling helpless, feeling scared of standing up for what is right. Overall, I just want horses to have the same rights as other domestic animals. If you hit an animal then you are an animal abuser and you should get a ban on owning that animal for life - that should weed out the bad'uns pretty quickly.

 

[equinerebel]

the reality of being exposed to such narcissistic and toxic people is that sometimes you feel completely helpless - they will twist your words, threaten you, turn everyone against you, maybe even hurt your animal as an act of revenge. When you have spent enough time with someone this unhinged and unpredictable, you will understand that it's not as simple as doing the right thing.

That is my experience, but in a non-equine environment. Especially the part I bolded.

 

[Upthecreek]

I'll try and explain it again.

The brain is not working through logic, it's the reptilian brain, or whatever you want to call it. The brain thinks it's under threat, whether it is a genuine threat or not. The brain seeks a way, subconsiously, to help the person survive the situation. The person is not doing it consciously.

Then add in all the conscious stuff that some people deal with better than others - the horsey community, somewhere safe to keep your horse, someone to help you with your horse....so many things come under threat when we speak out and this piles on top of the rider and makes it more likely they'll go into a freeze or fawn response.

"There but for the grace of God" is a good reaction, instead of blame to add to the victim's shame.

Change does need to happen, and the more we talk about how this is NOT acceptable in any way shape of form, the more than rider might have NOT gone into her reptilian brain, and been able to stand up for her horse. No-ones saying this is a forever situation, it's just that it's real, and much more common than you think. I'm a gobsh*te some of the time, other times my people pleasing, which is perhaps a more moderate form of fawn, can raise its ugly head. Even in my early to mid thirties I've carried on in a lesson with techniques I didn't like much, but they knew better than me. No, it wasn't outright abuse in the same way as these videos, but now, to me, it's not much better.

I fully understand everything you have said, I just don’t agree with all of it. I do believe that people can act logically in stressful situations, our survival often depends on it.

For me welfare of horse, child, whoever comes first and I would be able to (and have when the need arose) overcome whatever feelings I was experiencing to stop them being abused in front of me. I guess I’m just surprised that so many others wouldn’t. I am not a naturally assertive or particularly confident person and I certainly don’t seek out or enjoy confrontation. But the thought of standing there watching my horse being beasted to the point of exhaustion in obvious distress for over 20 minutes is unimaginable to me.

I am not victim blaming, the owner of the horse is not a victim. I respect her for finding the courage to speak out and I hope the abuser faces harsh consequences, though I have little hope that they will.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

Going back to the Obedience study: when people describe the study pretty much everyone says they would stop early and refuse to comply with what was essentially torturing and possibly killing a totally innocent stranger. But in reality everyone obeyed for a long time, and most obeyed completely.

In fact the study was set up to try and understand why millions of ordinary Germans were complicit in the holocaust -just following orders. The assumption was that there was something unique about German deference to authority so the experiment was set up with Americans to get a baseline of ‘normal’ people. And they discovered that obedience was not a German thing, just a human thing. It was a shocking finding which has been replicated repeatedly in variations. In situations of power imbalance - even when there is no real threat - people comply.

Participants were totally traumatized by the experience. They were distressed during the experiment and even more so afterwards simply not able to understand why they went along with it.

In terms of what to do, well people CAN advocate for their horses if they plan in advance and rehearse. I have frozen a couple of times, and now I go into all situations clear in my own mind that I will challenge and if necessary pull my horse out and leave. But caught by surprise in the moment, people DO freeze.

 

[Lois Lame]

... but until you are in that situation you cannot understand how "frozen" you can be.

I think people often forget that they cannot know how they would react to any given situation that they have not faced.

 

[daffy44]

Going back to the Obedience study: when people describe the study pretty much everyone says they would stop early and refuse to comply with what was essentially torturing and possibly killing a totally innocent stranger. But in reality everyone obeyed for a long time, and most obeyed completely.

In fact the study was set up to try and understand why millions of ordinary Germans were complicit in the holocaust -just following orders. The assumption was that there was something unique about German deference to authority so the experiment was set up with Americans to get a baseline of ‘normal’ people. And they discovered that obedience was not a German thing, just a human thing. It was a shocking finding which has been replicated repeatedly in variations. In situations of power imbalance - even when there is no real threat - people comply.

Participants were totally traumatized by the experience. They were distressed during the experiment and even more so afterwards simply not able to understand why they went along with it.

In terms of what to do, well people CAN advocate for their horses if they plan in advance and rehearse. I have frozen a couple of times, and now I go into all situations clear in my own mind that I will challenge and if necessary pull my horse out and leave. But caught by surprise in the moment, people DO freeze.

Has anyone here read the novel "The Wave"? Its a fictional account of a real experiment done by a teacher in a school in America in the 60's to teach his students about fascism, fascinating book. Very similar in essence to the Obedience study, people can say/believe how they would act in certain situations, but until it actually happens to you, you dont know.

Of course these riders should have advocated for the horses, but there are so many reasons why in the moment they are unable to do so, and I'm sure no one can torment them about that as much as they do themselves. The blame lies with the person who is actually being abusive to the horse.

 

[Boulty]

I guess some of it (ie how someone might react in that situation) is partly maybe down to our early experiences with horses / what we’re taught & experience as children. There’s obviously a massive power imbalance between an adult instructor and young children. If someone is pressured to kick hard & to use the whip as hard and as many times as required to get the response the instructor wants from the start then it’s hard to completely unlearn that even if you start down a different path. Maybe that makes someone less likely to step in than someone who’s never been taught in that way? (& a lot of riding schools, pony clubs etc DO teach in that way!) Cos maybe there’s still a little voice saying that this is just how things are done?

There is a limit to the amount of protesting a young child can / will do (unless their parents back them up) if the alternative is being expelled from the lesson & not being allowed to ride anymore. I guess this can also teach from an early age that if you talk back to those “above you” that you will be ignored anyway.

I’ve definitely been in situations where I wish I’d called something a day earlier / advocated better / situations where we were putting more pressure on the horse than was ideal / where we should have chosen a different way of approaching a problem. I’m not just talking about instructors here as one of the ones I feel most guilty about involved a dentist (& she didn’t do anything most people would think that awful & I certainly don’t think she herself thought she was being abusive but she pushed that horse so far over threshold that it took years to be able to get near him with even a non electric rasp unless he was sedated) & one of the others was a group of vets (same horse). Again completely screwed up how he reacted to vets for the rest of his life.

In the case of the dentist I was the one holding the horse and I did try to tell her no / to stop now but she was hellbent on “getting the job done”. The job did not “get done” in the end as trying to continue to rasp a horses teeth when they’re plunging about on their hind legs is not really safe & she did eventually accept that. I could absolutely have just led the horse away. But I didn’t. Because the person I was then wasn’t capable of standing up to someone “in authority” in such a blatant way.

The vet incident I only saw by chance as I had to nip back to reception that way. I don’t think they were even aware I’d seen. I should have ran over, yelled at them & either taken the horse away or insisted on supervising them. I didn’t. I should have made an official complaint about their awful handling. I didn’t do that either. 23 year old me was not mentally capable of either of those things. I have never darkened their doorway with another horse & I never will.

I’ve also been in a situation a few years ago where I did say “NOPE” to someone who was running the camp I’d gone to. (Aka I decided the sun did not in face shine out of her arse & that yes I was going to respect the limitations of what was fair to ask of my young & inexperienced horse even if that contradicted what she thought) It made the whole experience incredibly awkward and culminated in standing arguing on a beach about stress signals and said person’s ignorance of them.

My line of work means that I’ve had to learn how to stand up to someone with skills & qualifications greater than my own when I think their decision making is unsound or where I think it might compromise patient welfare. It’s still not something I enjoy & it is always difficult but it’s something I’ve had to learn how to navigate doing.

Sorry if my ramblings have dragged this thread waaaaay off course. I suppose what I’m trying to say is that it’s really really hard to stand up & say “STOP” to someone in a position of authority at the time that something is actually happening when it’s going to make the most difference. It’s also hard to call something out after the event, especially if it involves admitting you didn’t step in to stop it happening when you could have done. But I am of the opinion that both of these can be learnt skills (that as with all things some people start off with more of a head start in than others) and that the more we practice them in small ways hopefully the easier it will be to speak out when it matters. Based on zero actual science, just personal opinion & waffle!

 

[ThreeFurs]

Thanks Boulty. I think 'calling' abuse, when your outgunned and outnumbered, can be both learned, and innate.

I recall, decades ago. after Art School, applying from Adelaide to two MA courses in Art Psychotherapy in the UK, one at Goldsmiths, the other in St Albans. I'd been given interviews at both. I flew over and attend the St Albans one, which they ran as a day long large group therapy session and mid-way through the day, I stood up and said 'this is outrageous, you cannot interview prospective Higher degree students as if they were therapy clients; these are two different settings, with two different purposes. What your doing is unconscionable and I'm leaving'. And i did. and I was 22. Luckily Goldsmiths took me!

Back on topic though; we need to recall what Meleeka said a few pages back; [which I went and verified]. On Roger East's FB post of the video, not the YouTube one, you will see if you read through the comments a post by a Cynthia Quint [an SA dressage person I don't know, but know people who know her].

CQ was apparently thrown violently out of the first session of the day at the Alicia Fielmich clinic in SA in 2013. CQ had the temerity to 'question' what AF was doing when she got on her horse, with the result that AF slammed to a halt, threw the reins over the horse's head at the rider, screaming, bullying, threatening, all of that stuff, and basically chucked CQ and her horse out of the clinic.

On the day, for anyone observing this, or about to ride next, seeing that, would have created a real atmosphere of threat. Not letting anyone off the hook; just sayin', it would really have been 'don't poke the bear' vibe. Even the bear, in this analogy, deserves, and still does, and absolute legal skewering. AF's reaction is textbook psycho/narcissist using fury/ and the possible threat of real physical violence, to control others. So not surprising, but needs to borne in mind in the context.

So, that's where the control is. If your not 'with the program' you are going to be absolutely publicly, screamed at, shamed, and thrown out.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

Yes to all of that @Boulty Bystander non intervention or 'diffusion of responsibility' is another strange human phenomenon. In another experiment a subject was in a room thinking they were waiting for the experiement on whatever made up thing they were meant to be volunteering for to start. There were other 'volunteers' also waiting, and the receptionst. A fire started in the waiting room that everyone ignored. The only genuine subject was that one person in a room full of actors all ignoring a (fake) fire: Smoke, smell etc. And the the subjects sat in an apparently burning room and most did nothing! Ven when the rom was so full of smooke that people were coughing. Taking their lead from everyone else.

These days you aren't allowed to do studies like this - informed consent is needed so you can't trick people. But these studies are so important to understand why we do or don't do things totally against our own values or even our own safety.

Going back to what can we do moving forward:

* Think ahead about the possibility that the trainer might behave in ways you don't like and have a rehearsed plan.
* Teach kids to challenge authority if something feels off to them - I'd have this as part of PC Badges and BHS stages. A 'manifesto for the horse' and a discussion about what to do in different challenging scenarios.
* Research any trainer well before you use them
* Create a safe culture around reporting even if you did nothing about it at the time.

 

[Upthecreek]

People have come up with many reasons why people don’t intervene, and why they personally have not done so, so I accept that my views on this differ to many of you. I remain surprised that more horse owners wouldn’t intervene in this particular situation.

I have never thought of myself as being assertive or self-assured, but reading this thread indicates that I must be compared to many people. It’s been quite an eye opener.

 

[equinerebel]

A lot of people think they know how they would respond to a hypothetical situation they're reading about, but when it actually happens, with a thousand different variables, they often don't react how they were so sure they would.

I don't think anyone here would say "oh no, I would definitely prioritise my own comfort over my child/animal", and that's not what's happening in those unfortunate situations. They're not cowards, they're not meek, they're reacting how the human brain often reacts. The studies listed above are all perfect examples of the "bystander effect". A lot of people who think they would do better would be horrified to learn that they may, in fact, not.

I'm sure the owner of the horse already feels worse than any of us could make them feel, but perhaps we should move back to discussing the person who actually abused the horse.

 

[cauda equina]

A lot of the examples talked about here are in general settings - bystanders and so on
If it's your horse being beasted you are not (or should not be) 'a bystander' - you are all the horse has to protect him (well, that and a bloody good buck, which sadly many horses seem too polite to deploy)

 

[equinerebel]

A lot of the examples talked about here are in general settings - bystanders and so on
If it's your horse being beasted you are not (or should not be) 'a bystander' - you are all the horse has to protect him (well, that and a bloody good buck, which sadly many horses seem too polite to deploy)

"Bystander" is used to refer to anyone witnessing the behaviour and not participating in it. So in this case, the owner was both a bystander, and their horses sole advocate. I'm not defending the owner's actions, I'm just saying it's a really common reaction. Ultimately, they did the right thing in releasing the footage and we should encourage an environment where people feel comfortable doing so, even if they are ashamed of their behaviour in the moment. That is how more abusers will be exposed.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

And in the Obedience study the partcipants were not bystanders - they were the ones administering what they thought were dangerous and painful electric shocks to inncoent people. whiile also believing there had been a 50% chance that THEY were the learner and not the teacher - and despite hearing the learners screaming and begging them to stop!

Those saying I would advocate for my horse - I believe you. Perhaps you saw someone advocate for theirs once and developed a mind map for that. Perhaps you witnessed people not advocating for their horse and felt they should have - creating a mental commitment to behave differently yourself in any future situation. Who knows why. But the point is that there could be a hundred other situations involving an innocent person/child/animal/colleague where you could and should speak out, and don't because you are triggered into freeze/compliance/conforming to social roles whatever.

Stage hypnosis is similar - social compliance and social roles are SO SO SO powerful. The role of the student is to learn, the role of the pro is to educate and teach. Coming out of role to say 'STOP - that's not the right thing to do is really hard for many people. Like saying 'yeah this onion tastes like an onion' when your role is the hypnotisee entertaining a paying crowd.

Anyway I agree with equinerebel, even if you fail to understand why people don't speak out at the time, it is surely helpful to at least not condemn when they finally do, and to focus on the abusers. And on educating owners into how to be better advocates in future in a non judgemental way.

 

[Fellewell]

Weren't a lot of those experiments into obedience and the limits of personal autonomy eventually debunked? I've seen plenty of examples of kids, dogs and indeed horses under threat and their nearest and dearest don't freeze, far from it. Being protective isn't a rarity.
The motivation here is the perception of a quick route to success at the expense of a horse. The owner isn't a victim and the crocodile tears were probably due to the amount she'd have to reimburse the YO for the wall damage.
Is this the same 'coach' whose only claim to fame is winning a class that no one else had entered. We need to find a way to stop people from dining out on that sort of 'achievement'.

 

[Peglo]

For me welfare of horse, child, whoever comes first and I would be able to (and have when the need arose) overcome whatever feelings I was experiencing to stop them being abused in front of me. I guess I’m just surprised that so many others wouldn’t.

Equinerebel and AE have said explained much better than I managed too.
We would all like to say we would’ve done something and likely would now we’ve thought about what we’d do but it’s different living it in real time, feeling shocked and blindsided. I can understand people freezing, I have no idea whether I would or not. In my mind I wouldn’t but I don’t know.

So many times I’ve allowed someone to speak to me in a way where I’ve been left frustrated and ashamed at my response. I play it over in my head and all the things I should’ve said and the next time something similar happens I do say it. I’m prepared and defend myself. Of course that is just defending myself and I’d hope I’d do better if it was in defence of someone else but I just don’t know until I’m in that situation.

So I struggle not to sympathise with the owner and won’t condemn them for coming forward afterwards because as ER says, I bet they’ve felt shame and guilt ever since it happened. And the important thing is these hideous people are being outed

 

[Upthecreek]

Equinerebel and AE have said explained much better than I managed too.
We would all like to say we would’ve done something and likely would now we’ve thought about what we’d do but it’s different living it in real time, feeling shocked and blindsided. I can understand people freezing, I have no idea whether I would or not. In my mind I wouldn’t but I don’t know.

So many times I’ve allowed someone to speak to me in a way where I’ve been left frustrated and ashamed at my response. I play it over in my head and all the things I should’ve said and the next time something similar happens I do say it. I’m prepared and defend myself. Of course that is just defending myself and I’d hope I’d do better if it was in defence of someone else but I just don’t know until I’m in that situation.

So I struggle not to sympathise with the owner and won’t condemn them for coming forward afterwards because as ER says, I bet they’ve felt shame and guilt ever since it happened. And the important thing is these hideous people are being outed

I suppose the thing is I know what I would have done because I’ve been in many situations over the years where I have stepped in when a professional has treated my horses or my children in a way that could cause them immediate harm or that could be detrimental to their wellbeing, so I am speaking from experience. I have a very strong urge to protect those I am responsible for, be they human or animal, so perhaps for me this somehow overrides everything else? I have also intervened in fights between people I don’t know and only last week blocked a shop doorway so a shoplifter couldn’t leave the shop. So perhaps that’s just me

 

[Nicnac]

Good to see Dannie Morgan speaking out against the trolls giving some dressage riders/competitors a hard time. But at the same time the FEI are holding a conference to talk about the issues in the dressage world but are not allowing any media to attend. At their last similar veined conference where they discussed the issues in the endurance world, the media were allowed in (i.e. H&H).

The lack of the transparency from the FEI is highly concerning.

 

[nikicb]

Hopefully the FEI are beginning to work through their intray of welfare/horse abuse cases. Danish rider Carina Cassøe Krüth has been suspended for eight months over behaviour shown in a training video. The suspension will run until 28 April 2025. She's intending to appeal the decision, and is claiming to be very sorry about it, it was a mistake, one off, blah, blah, blah.....

ETA and of course there are the usual types defending her behaviour on the FB post.

https://www.facebook.com/horseandhound/posts/pfbid02dGvUpvwjv2phaKxxem4H5goHt5JUrgkstGSMr8jyjFSX4KhgBaCoYZgPo1Msazrvl

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

Hopefully the FEI are beginning to work through their intray of welfare/horse abuse cases. Danish rider Carina Cassøe Krüth has been suspended for eight months over behaviour shown in a training video. The suspension will run until 28 April 2025. She's intending to appeal the decision, and is claiming to be very sorry about it, it was a mistake, one off, blah, blah, blah.....

ETA and of course there are the usual types defending her behaviour on the FB post.

https://www.facebook.com/horseandhound/posts/pfbid02dGvUpvwjv2phaKxxem4H5goHt5JUrgkstGSMr8jyjFSX4KhgBaCoYZgPo1Msazrvl

It irks me that they're leading it with 'medal winning'. Her statement could not read less sorry if she tried.

Also didn't read all the FB comments but I did spot 'Hunting Kind' liking this fine example:

"HERE WE GO AGAIN
All the keyboard warriors. The closest thing, they've ever come into contact with is My Little Pony"

Knobs.

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

Not sure if this one of NA (AD's colleague) has already been shared.

Zum Anzeigen anmelden oder registrieren

Sieh dir auf Facebook Beiträge, Fotos und vieles mehr an.

www.facebook.com

 

[ester]

I enjoyed 'where are the RSPCA' - people who don't know how things work. . .

 

[Penguin_Toes]

Not sure if this one of NA (AD's colleague) has already been shared.

Zum Anzeigen anmelden oder registrieren

Sieh dir auf Facebook Beiträge, Fotos und vieles mehr an.

www.facebook.com

This is apparently the same horse that is in the CDJ whipping video - Gretchen/Dynamite Hit

 

[misst]

It is so sad to see "top" riders doing this. There is obviously a lot more sh1t left to hit the fan. I just wonder who next?

 

[meleeka]

It astounds me that none of them seem to realise that when you hit a horse hard with a whip, they are probably going to kick out. I still can't fathom what they are trying to achieve.

 

[tristars]

Releasing their own frustration, which comes from thier own shortcomings

 

[reynold]

Also expressing their 'domination' over a mere animal.

I have a particular dislike of people who refer to a horse as 'it' rather than using the horses name or even he/she.

 

[ester]

I think it’s mostly winning/having the last word. I was once told to hit a pony every time it bucked in order for that reason.

 

[dorsetladette]

I think it’s mostly winning/having the last word. I was once told to hit a pony every time it bucked in order for that reason.

yep me too. 'winning the argument' was put in the same context as 'finishing on a positive note'

 

[tristars]

If it's not working, stop, walk around nicely, pat the horse, get off talk to the horse, kiss its nose, give it a neck hug, put it away happy, it will be there tomorrow to try again, spend the evening thinking through the emotions and plan a calm approach for the next ride

Do not thrash it, because it ain't nice, and it won't have a bloody clue what's happening

That poor gretchen it's enough to make you cry