Yet another delightful rider..... not..... when will this end?

[LEC]

You actually don’t need to end on a good note with horses. I know we are obsessed with it. But sometimes things don’t go to plan and you can go let’s stop, and try again another time as long as you haven’t hit a threshold where the horse is going to have real issues and memories relating to it. You can hit a block, stop and then come back to it and often they process it better and will move on. For instance let’s say your horse won’t walk over a pole on the ground. You can have minor resistance in a nice way as in horse says no, you ask nicely - lose rein, represent, get off etc and it still says no, decide ok I am going to leave it without escalating and then come back another day and their mind set is often different as you have listened. I think we are obsessed with the idea of completion and that you create a problem by not solving it. Actually you create a problem by escalation.

 

[Miss_Millie]

Hopefully the FEI are beginning to work through their intray of welfare/horse abuse cases. Danish rider Carina Cassøe Krüth has been suspended for eight months over behaviour shown in a training video. The suspension will run until 28 April 2025. She's intending to appeal the decision, and is claiming to be very sorry about it, it was a mistake, one off, blah, blah, blah.....

ETA and of course there are the usual types defending her behaviour on the FB post.

https://www.facebook.com/horseandhound/posts/pfbid02dGvUpvwjv2phaKxxem4H5goHt5JUrgkstGSMr8jyjFSX4KhgBaCoYZgPo1Msazrvl

Whenever I see a dressage photo like that, this is what comes to mind Must they lean back so far? I can only imagine the pressure on the horse's mouth.

 

[teapot]

Releasing their own frustration, which comes from thier own shortcomings

Same can be said for coaches who absolutely lose it.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

You actually don’t need to end on a good note with horses. I know we are obsessed with it. But sometimes things don’t go to plan and you can go let’s stop, and try again another time as long as you haven’t hit a threshold where the horse is going to have real issues and memories relating to it. You can hit a block, stop and then come back to it and often they process it better and will move on. For instance let’s say your horse won’t walk over a pole on the ground. You can have minor resistance in a nice way as in horse says no, you ask nicely - lose rein, represent, get off etc and it still says no, decide ok I am going to leave it without escalating and then come back another day and their mind set is often different as you have listened. I think we are obsessed with the idea of completion and that you create a problem by not solving it. Actually you create a problem by escalation.

This! I'll never forget a PC Camp on Toby (aged 5, green as grass) at Eland Lodge with D2 riding. She was about 14? Anyway he refused the big ditch/hedge/brush thing. It's a horrid jump really as it goes from grass to gravel 10 feet before it, which some horses back off, then they see the ditch and then it's bigger than they are used to as it has 20cm of brush on it. Anyway D2 was asked to re-present. He refused again. Cue a tantrum from the PC instructor : KICK HIM, bring him round again KICK HIM. I could see Izzy was not kicking him, but trying to encourage him to just have a look at it. But by then he would not go within 10 feet of it. And a few minutes later would not go within 30 feet of it. I had been utterly bawled out as a parent for interfering in PC lessons in the past, and so I said/did nothing. (I regret that now). After 15 minutes she gave up, yelling "you've LET HIM WIN". And the lesson carried on. The RI did NOTHING to make the question easier for Toby - no lead from another horse, no encouraging him to sniff, walk roind it, etc etc. Or just recognising he was scared and leaving it for another day. Utterly rubbish teaching and horsemanship. We had to go back another day and sort out a much bigger issue than we needed to because she had made a massive issue of it.

With the exception of a 'Big Name' trainer, the worst teaching and horsemanship examples I ever saw were all at PC. We did not stay involved long. The instruction was all so regressive, adversarial and - frankly- shite. Huge emphasis on tack cleaning and turn out, and bugger all on setting your pony up for success and learning how to resolve any issues.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

And the other thing I have an issue with re PC - given the current context - is the total lack of any room for ANY dissent whatsoever. Raising a group of kids who learned young that they need to shut up and do as they are told. I don't know if it was just our PC but it was full of bossy, shouty, older women who marched around barking orders at people - kids and parents alike. No wonder people struggle to challenge their instructors!

 

[humblepie]

If it's not working, stop, walk around nicely, pat the horse, get off talk to the horse, kiss its nose, give it a neck hug, put it away happy, it will be there tomorrow to try again, spend the evening thinking through the emotions and plan a calm approach for the next ride

Do not thrash it, because it ain't nice, and it won't have a bloody clue what's happening

That poor gretchen it's enough to make you cry

This and LEC's post. Pop the horse away, have a think about why what isn't happening and go back to it with a clear head and a plan, including do you really need to do what you were trying to do anyway.

 

[Patterdale]

And the other thing I have an issue with re PC - given the current context - is the total lack of any room for ANY dissent whatsoever. Raising a group of kids who learned young that they need to shut up and do as they are told. I don't know if it was just our PC but it was full of bossy, shouty, older women who marched around barking orders at people - kids and parents alike. No wonder people struggle to challenge their instructors!

Every pony club is different. Some are really lovely, nurturing and friendly. And some are bloody awful. Totally dependent on the people (clique) running them.

It really needs dragging into the modern age, but there is such a large group of ‘old school’ bossy people in charge that I can’t see it happening at the moment.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I always try to end up on a good note with a horse, but that doesn’t mean endlessly bashing on until you get ‘the thing’ done to your satisfaction. I back off to something that the horse finds easy and work that for a little til we can end the session with a relaxed horse on a loose rein.

Say you’ve lost the right canter strike off and it’s all gone pear shaped. Forget the right canter strike off, go back to some easy trot work, maybe 20m circles with a few change of rein and end the session with a relaxed horse. Then mull over what went on with the canter strike off and plan how you might approach it another day.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

Every pony club is different. Some are really lovely, nurturing and friendly. And some are bloody awful. Totally dependent on the people (clique) running them.

It really needs dragging into the modern age, but there is such a large group of ‘old school’ bossy people in charge that I can’t see it happening at the moment.

Yes I had forgotten my PC experiences (suppressed the trauma!!) but it is so relevant to the current discussion. There is a school of thought that says discipline and repect for authority is all important. So parents butt out, kids shut up and listen. Fine if what you are being told is useful, fair, accurate. But what if it isn't? There was just NO WAY a child could argue with a PC instructor. It was actually also very diffcult for a parent to. I tried to intervene once, for very good reason, and was banned from watching the lesson and publicly humiliated: "NO NO NO We CANNOT have parents interfering, you need to leave".

My ids had a lot of fun at rallies, but the overall lessons they learned were to fear the teachers and to tolerate stuff the knew/felt was wrong. Eg once an instructor threw a full coke bottle at the pony. It actually hit D1 instead which was good I suppose, but it was hard enough to leave bruising. Just ridiculous. And that RI regularly chucked sand at ponies to try and make them jump.

So if we want people to advocate for their horses and stand up to 'authority' - at the moment many PC kids are being taught that this is simply unacceptable and are shamed, yelled at and shut down for trying.

 

[sbloom]

The Australian PC is setting the trend, hopefully the British one will follow them.

I always try to end up on a good note with a horse, but that doesn’t mean endlessly bashing on until you get ‘the thing’ done to your satisfaction. I back off to something that the horse finds easy and work that for a little til we can end the session with a relaxed horse on a loose rein.

Say you’ve lost the right canter strike off and it’s all gone pear shaped. Forget the right canter strike off, go back to some easy trot work, maybe 20m circles with a few change of rein and end the session with a relaxed horse. Then mull over what went on with the canter strike off and plan how you might approach it another day.

One of my most admired trainers has been known to work a horse only on one rein for a significant period of time because she could make improvements, develop him correctly, whereas the other rein was just a fight. Not something for most of us mere mortals to consider but "problems" with a horse's way of going or performance are seldom best tackled head on. There's not only usually a better way to develop that particular ability, but developing other abilities drags the lesser ones along with them too.

 

[reynold]

I used to go to PC shows and rallies in-loco-parentis for the 2 girls that competed a couple of my ponies.

One show there was a child who was continuously jumping her pony over and over the practice fence (think 30 minutes) and vigorously using both whip and spurs (the pony was a saint and kept jumping whilst I kept hoping it would put her on the deck). After seeing this child do exactly the same at a subsequent show I complained to the secretary.

It turned out the child (around 13 yrs old) was the daughter of a committee member who then turned up and started verbally abusing me.....

When I complained about the verbal abuse to the DC the mother threw her toys out and resigned and I was lambasted by the DC for costing her a 'valuable committee member'!!

Meanwhile at the next hunter trial the same kid was doing the same thing to the same pony and I stood by and said nothing. I'd tried to no avail.

Ironically about 6 yrs later I was at livery with my 2 oldies and the same child, now grown to adulthood, turned up with her horse as another livery. She rode exactly the same abusive way but the family had money and the YO needed bills paying and so no-one said anything.

The child as was should have been corrected as a 13 yr old. She wasn't and went on into adulthood riding in the same abusive way sadly.

On a general note for those of us who are older, for whom PC attendance was decades ago, in those days the PC instructors/ladies would themselves have been trained by ex-military men (I certainly was!) who took no nonsense and whose word was law.

Iirc the original PC manual and tests - on which the modern PC tests are based - were based on military/cavalry ideals. However - I'm out of the loop now - I'm surprised that such disciplinary teaching is apparently still surviving in the PC in the modern times.

 

[LEC]

obviously my experience at PC was a long time ago but just not my experience - I refused to wear a shirt and tie so wore a red polo shirt. They asked nicely for me to change it and I didn’t so they left me alone.

Parents are a massive issue at PC now so it’s tricky for trainers. The old days of riding on grass and being left alone for the day as kids is well gone. Plus the old skool trainers tend to be cheaper…. And it works. Parents want to see their children achieving and sometimes they are not well mounted.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

Oh I totally get over-involved, pushy parents and poorly mounted riders. I run camps with loads of kids!! But this criticism of PC goes well beyond their totally legimtate need for boundaries. Military is the right word. The vibe was totally military: barked orders, turn out massively prioritised, instructors word was law. The DC was terrifying!

@LEC there is absolutely no way you would have been allowed to ditch the shirt and tie!

I know plenty of parents who think it did their kids the world of good to put up and shut up. And I can see the value of some of that. But in the context of the discussion in this thread, do we really wonder why so many riders freeze and feel utterly disempowered when they see trainers behaving in ways they don't agree with. Or why hrash riding is so common. Early conditioning runs deep!

I should probably have just switched to a different branch but my kids' friends all went to this one as you could hunt for free. They did not want to hunt but they wanted to be with their friends. But in the end it was change branch or leave and they chose to leave.

 

[nikicb]

I am still treasurer for my local PC branch despite the fact that my children gave up around a decade ago. I did become more actively involved for a year or so, just before covid, as I took one of our ponies to rallies for the girl that shared him for a while. We are a small branch of around 50 members, and it's a very supportive, caring little community. Of the seven instructors we use regularly, only one is what I would call 'old school'. The others are all of a different generation, down to the youngest who is early twenties, and is a previous member. We run at least two rallies a week, often more, so there is plenty of choice in terms of which teaching style parents and children prefer. We do ask for children and ponies to be turned out well at both rallies and when competing, but I don't disagree with that. It isn't done in a draconian way. If standards begin to slip, a reminder goes out via social media/Whatsapp of the requirements. In terms of our committee, I know I am the oldest, and the joint DCs are in their thirties and forties. Some of the other committee members make me feel very old! I didn't go through PC personally, and I'm not sure how many of the committee members did, but we seem to have reached a happy mix of complying with rules and providing a nurturing environment for the children and their horses/ponies. We have had a few incidences of 'aggressive parenting' over the years, and it has been called out, and the families have been privately asked to either change their behaviour, or leave.

This was posted by one of our regular instructors earlier this summer - note that it was posted well before the CDJ incident came to light, so it wasn't a knee jerk reaction. It has already been shared over a thousand times, so I feel quite happy posting it here. I know the person who posted this was also a regular member on here in times past.

Bei Facebook anmelden

Melde dich bei Facebook an, um dich mit deinen Freunden, deiner Familie und Personen, die du kennst, zu verbinden und Inhalte zu teilen.

www.facebook.com

I know this approach is not typical of all PC branches and centres, but I am happy to be associated with our branch. After all, all most of us can do is influence those in our immediate communities, and hope that the ripples begin to spread out.

ETA not sure why the link isn't showing as imbedded, so have put the photo on as well.

 

[Patterdale]

The ‘parents don’t interfere’ approach I really struggle with. When you have young kids, you have to think of their safety and there are multiple times when my shouting out or intervening has saved a fall. And after being told to shut up earlier this year, I did keep my mouth shut when my child was told to ride at a fence at a completely inappropriate speed (by a well meaning coach), fell off and broke her arm. If I’d shouted out for her to slow down, she would have. But I probably would have been thrown out of the lesson.

Teaching kids is completely different to teaching adults, you have to think for them and pre-empt them, or accidents happen. A lot of younger coaches don’t understand this, and the pony club approach doesn’t work for them.

I now prefer to teach my kids myself, or with trusted coaches one to one. It means we’re not supporting rallies, which is a shame, but I need to put their safety and progress first.

We’ve also had multiple occasions of ponies being really let down by PC coaches. Including jumps too big, pony runs out, coach does nothing to correct it or help, pony keeps running out, loses all confidence. Child loses confidence. I intervene, get told off.
Or pony who has been nappy, we’ve sorted it with a LOT of work, first lesson back they’ve put it following our other pony and basically spent an hour inviting it to nap. Back to square one.

This hobby is too expensive in both time and money for this to be acceptable.

PC competitions can be awful too, with some absolute harridans working as secretaries. I had one shouting at my child in the ring to get off because the pony was too big for her after she had a run out, then shouting at me when I went in. Child left the ring in tears with the steward shouting after me ‘SEE? I WONDER WHOS THE ONE WHO REALLY WANTS TO DO THIS’ etc. Child was crying because of the woman humiliating her, not me overhorsing her.

Same child got told off by a steward last week. She got eliminated on an awful course which saw hardly any clears in a big class, and as she was riding out through the gate was flapping her whip. She does this because the pony naps and because she has a developmental disorder which makes her movements uncoordinated at times. She wasn’t hitting the pony. The steward said loudly ‘stop hitting that pony just because you’ve been eliminated.’ Daughter was so upset.

Reading this back I don’t know why we still bother!!

Anyone who knows me this isn’t our club specific. My club is a nice one and small! But the general ethos/competitions etc…

 

[photo_jo]

I have photos I took last century of a gorgeous Grand Prix horse who used to compete. The rider worked the horse in with two sticks, the photos are of all the whip marks from the rider’s average working in. And sadly nothing I could do about it at the time.

 

[Upthecreek]

Children don’t need to be in the Pony Club. Why are people putting themselves, their kids and their ponies through this? And paying for the privilege

 

[reynold]

because some riding schools allow kids who don't actually own ponies to hire a pony for the day and participate in PC activities.

It is of benefit to the kids who are interested in ponies but haven't got the finance to own their own - I was one of them

 

[Ample Prosecco]

And because it should be a fun way of spending time with your pony and your friends! PC offered loads of opportunities

- Rallies
- Competing
- Badges and qualificationa
- Trying out new things like tetrathlon
- Pole picking and dressage running and big local events/internationals
- Camps and senior camp

And all very reasonably priced. It could/should have been great. And lots of it was. It was let down by the poor standard of some of the 'old school' teaching and the rude/borderline bullying culture.

 

[Upthecreek]

And because it should be a fun way of spending time with your pony and your friends! PC offered loads of opportunities

- Rallies
- Competing
- Badges and qualificationa
- Trying out new things like tetrathlon
- Pole picking and dressage running and big local events/internationals
- Camps and senior camp

And all very reasonably priced. It could/should have been great. And lots of it was. It was let down by the poor standard of some of the 'old school' teaching and the rude/borderline bullying culture.

But you yourself have said how damaging it was for you as a child and how it has affected your ability to stand up for yourself as an adult! If you can’t change the situation, you vote with your feet. If you have complained about the appalling behaviour of some of the instructors/trainers and have not been listened to, you remove your child and their pony from harms way. Not being in the Pony Club is not going to damage them, being screamed at and told to hit their ponies will. We need to move on from this sort of thing being thought of as ‘character building’ for kids. It’s not. It’s abusive and parents have the power to put a stop to it by removing their children from the situation.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Pony Club ought and should be good. I had a great time and learned loads back in the 70s. My non horsey late mum was branch Secretary and she took no truck with poor behaviour from anyone whether they were a member or an official. Good sportsmanship was highly prized. When Virginia Holgate, as she then was, went to SJ for our team at the interbranch horse trials she started her round before the bell and eliminated our team which had been on for the win. Her own mother told her to stop snivelling and to apologise to her team mates. Apology duly accepted from all.

Mum made sure that the non pony owners from the local scruffy riding stables with their borrowed mounts were as welcome as the more affluent members.

It’s very sad to hear of cliquey badly run branches these days when everyone really should know better.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

I never went to PC myself. I didn’t get my first horse till I was an adult. So not sure whether you are mixing up posters. And I did remove my children, as I said upthread. And my posts make it clear that I don’t think it’s character building at all, but quite the opposite. Particularly if we want children to grow up learning to question methods and advocate for the ponies.

 

[Upthecreek]

I never went to PC myself. I didn’t get my first horse till I was an adult. So not sure whether you are mixing up posters. And I did remove my children, as I said upthread. And my posts make it clear that I don’t think it’s character building at all, but quite the opposite. Particularly if we want children to grow up learning to question methods and advocate for the ponies.

Apologies, I see that you were talking about your children’s awful PC experiences rather than your own.

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

Pony Club ought and should be good. I had a great time and learned loads back in the 70s. My non horsey late mum was branch Secretary and she took no truck with poor behaviour from anyone whether they were a member or an official. Good sportsmanship was highly prized. When Virginia Holgate, as she then was, went to SJ for our team at the interbranch horse trials she started her round before the bell and eliminated our team which had been on for the win. Her own mother told her to stop snivelling and to apologise to her team mates. Apology duly accepted from all.

Mum made sure that the non pony owners from the local scruffy riding stables with their borrowed mounts were as welcome as the more affluent members.

It’s very sad to hear of cliquey badly run branches these days when everyone really should know better.

I could maybe understand this if she had thought being eliminated was unfair when it wasn't, but if she was already recognising it as her own mistake this just sounds like a crap way to treat/speak to anyone imo. Let alone a child or young person. Good sportsmanship is also recognising that your team mates are human and we're all capable of making silly mistakes when the pressure is on.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Didn’t seem that harsh at the time? VH was much the most experienced member of the team and IIRC would have won the individual. Her team mates were too stunned and polite to say much so her mother got her to speak to them rather than think of herself.


Anyhow, as her mother said to her ‘Well, you won’t do that again’ and as far as I know she didn't. Which might later have saved us a team GB medal or two.

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

Didn’t seem that harsh at the time? VH was much the most experienced member of the team and IIRC would have won the individual. Her team mates were too stunned and polite to say much so her mother got her to speak to them.

I may have read it harsher than it was. I just thought if I had made a mistake like that, as an adult, and was upset about it already for having let the team down and not getting to compete myself, I'd find it pretty awful if someone told me to "stop snivelling".

 

[EventingMum]

It's such a shame that some people have had such negative experiences with Pony Club but I do think it varies from branch to branch and who the office bearers are at the time. I joined my local newly formed branch when I got my first pony and had a wonderful experience making life long friends. Once I moved out of the area I also went back to camp each year to teach for several years. My son also had a great time in Pony Club, his branch was a long established one and once older he and I were on the committee for a few years and I still teach for this branch.

 

[suebou]

In PC defence, both my kids had a really good positive time in PC. Different ponies, instructors and experiences led to both being competent, disciplined riders with strong sense of fairness and putting the pony first. They made friends, travelled the country and absolutely got everything they should have from PC! Including riding with no sleep after first night at camp!

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

Coming back to the speaking up thing.

Today I put my metaphorical money where my mouth is and spoke up in a couple of ways. What is interesting to me about this was that it felt difficult, even though I don't train with anyone involved, I'm not financially linked to them in any way, and I don't compete. Very, very low stakes. But still a lot of doubt in my mind about how to speak up and still now questioning if I should have. I have empathy for those where things are more complicated and I hope that we can all put energy into creating cultures which support people to share their concerns.

 

[teapot]

Coming back to the speaking up thing.

Today I put my metaphorical money where my mouth is and spoke up in a couple of ways. What is interesting to me about this was that it felt difficult, even though I don't train with anyone involved, I'm not financially linked to them in any way, and I don't compete. Very, very low stakes. But still a lot of doubt in my mind about how to speak up and still now questioning if I should have. I have empathy for those where things are more complicated and I hope that we can all put energy into creating cultures which support people to share their concerns.

It IS hard I think, because the industry has a culture of don't question, shut up an put up etc. So even something seemingly simple becomes a huge item.

I was shouted at/screamed frankly into silence in a lesson once, and those who know me KNOW I have an opinion I barely said anything at the time, but I did put a complaint in writing a few weeks later (after a couple of other things happened).