Another fatal dog attack

scruffyponies

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Many years ago before my marriage I had a beautiful labrador bitch that my then boyfriend (now husband) bought me as a birthday present. By the time we married and went on to have our first child my dog was about 5 years old. She was very well bred from a reputable breeder. Always excellent behaviour, very easy to train from day one, but, she could show the odd mini snarl at my terrier and once or twice at the vet. Never showed any intention of biting though, just a small 'keep away from me' warning. To be on the safe side we always muzzled her at the vets.

When our son was born we were obviously very careful that we never left her alone with the baby, not even for a minute. She had not shown any signs of jealousy, indeed her attitude was the usual goofy labrador snuffling around at the bottom of his high chair looking for scraps and wagging her tail while she did so. One day I was sitting on one side of the lounge with my labrador at my feet, watching my son at about 12/14 months of age climbing on the sofa at the other side of the room and bouncing up and down and laughing as he did so. In a split second the dog leapt up flew across the room and bit my son on the side of his face. Fortunately it was not a major bite, more like a small nip but it has left him with a small scar on one side of his eye. There was no provocation, nothing unusual going on, a totally normal afternoon indoors with the baby and the two dogs.

So should we have immediately put her to sleep? Many would say yes we should have done. Well we didn't, from that day onward she wore a muzzle from the moment I got up (before getting my son out of his cot) until the baby was put to bed in the evening. If for any reason I had to get my son up the dog would be shut in another room. She lived for another 8 years and by the time my child was about 3 we had a second baby so in total the dog wore the muzzle for about 6 of those 8 remaining years. She never rubbed at the muzzle, she never complained, she joined in all family activities as before, and she never growled or threatened either of the children ever again, but she did still occasionally mutter at the terrier, but then so did I! She would put her nose straight into the muzzle herself when I appeared in the mornings.

I think her life was still happy and fulfilled, and eventually she did become a very good and loyal companion to the boys and would trail around after them all day long in the summer out in the garden. She would even leap in the paddling pool to play with them.

Were we cruel to muzzle her like that? Were we wrong to have kept her after that first unprovoked attack on a very small child. I am only posting this as an example of how a dog can be muzzled without any adverse effects on its quality of life or having to be shut out in a yard like it seems a lot of family dogs are. I think half the owners of these dogs do not really care much for their dogs at all if the new regulations are enough to warrant dumping their dogs, having them put down etc. etc.

Ducks behind the parapet and awaits the attack.:rolleyes:
I think that's a reasonable and proportionate use of a muzzle in the interest of both chlid and dog (*not sarc), as well as an anecdote supporting the banning of labradors, which vicious brutes are always tearing the faces off children (*sarc).

PS. I would have had her PTS too, probably, unless I could see a reason for the attack.*
*my sister once stuck a pin in my childhood CKCS, playing 'vets'. Some kids deserve what they get.
 

Mrs. Jingle

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No attack but yes I’d have had her pts. I love my dogs, very very much but I love my children more

And that is exactly what decision I would accept as correct and the right thing to do, but only if I had tried to make the situation work using the muzzle and the dog repeated the behaviour again. Then she would most certainly have been PTS.
I guess had the dog shown any aggression towards your child a second time the outcome for the dog may have been different.

As above AmyMay, yes she would have been PTS immediately had she ever shown any aggression with or without the muzzle on ever again.

well as an anecdote supporting the banning of labradors, which vicious brutes are always tearing the faces off children (*sarc).

That was also partly my intention in posting scruffyponies, even a breed that is known for its amicable behaviour as a family dog can be dangerous, not just the stereotypical big brutes that we seem to expect to attack and bite.
 

conniegirl

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and if more is needed it should be targeted at the criminals who breed and use dogs as weapons, not the 1000s of pet owners who choose to pick up the pieces by offering a home to the poor discarded pups.
But its not the criminals dogs who are attacking and killing others.
Its the family pets flipping and attacking children, the elderly, strangers minding their own business.

We have has breed specific legislation for over 30 years. Hardly the slippy slope you are portraying it, and hardly the death throws of an inept government, more one of the few good things they have done.

When one breed that of dog that comprises less than 0.2% of the UK’s dogs has been responsible for 47% of all fatal attacks in the last year and over 80% of reported dog attacks then it is the breed that is the problem.
 

Gloi

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But its not the criminals dogs who are attacking and killing others.
Its the family pets flipping and attacking children, the elderly, strangers minding their own business

When one breed that of dog that comprises less than 0.2% of the UK’s dogs has been responsible for 47% of all fatal attacks in the last year and over 80% of reported dog attacks then it is the breed that is the problem.
The people owning them aren't going to openly admit to being criminals though if their pet attacks someone.
 

misst

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The people owning them aren't going to openly admit to being criminals though if their pet attacks someone.
The point conniegirl is making is that the criminal element are often blamed for owning the aggressive dogs. However many many of the dogs attacking people are proper family pets - until the moment that they aren't. These attacks aren't just from dogs belonging to people keeping them to look hard, or for protection, they are coming from dogs who live alongside people in normal homes with children and old people and gardens and given love and attention. Then it all goes wrong around 18 months to 2 years old it would seem.
 

I'm Dun

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A motorhome is a vehicle, in which the dog must not only muzzled, but on a lead, held by someone over 16 AT ALL TIMES. Tents, Caravans, cars; all are considered not to be 'private spaces', according to the responses from DEFRA that I have seen.

Not according to the info I've seen. I live off grid, I engage with lots of others living that way. Several have had it confirmed, that when moving its a vehicle, if its parked up, it becomes a home.

I am yet to see anyone against this give reasoned comments backed up with evidence. Its always emotion driven things about how poor fluffykins will be soo upset wearing a muzzle. As an owner of sighthounds I'm utterly baffled as lots of us muzzle, and a properly muzzle trained dog is happy to see its muzzle and has no issues wearing it
 

marmalade76

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And that is exactly what decision I would accept as correct and the right thing to do, but only if I had tried to make the situation work using the muzzle and the dog repeated the behaviour again. Then she would most certainly have been PTS.


As above AmyMay, yes she would have been PTS immediately had she ever shown any aggression with or without the muzzle on ever again.



That was also partly my intention in posting scruffyponies, even a breed that is known for its amicable behaviour as a family dog can be dangerous, not just the stereotypical big brutes that we seem to expect to attack and bite.

And that dogs can go for children out of the blue and without provocation.
 

I'm Dun

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Many years ago before my marriage I had a beautiful labrador bitch that my then boyfriend (now husband) bought me as a birthday present. By the time we married and went on to have our first child my dog was about 5 years old. She was very well bred from a reputable breeder. Always excellent behaviour, very easy to train from day one, but, she could show the odd mini snarl at my terrier and once or twice at the vet. Never showed any intention of biting though, just a small 'keep away from me' warning. To be on the safe side we always muzzled her at the vets.

When our son was born we were obviously very careful that we never left her alone with the baby, not even for a minute. She had not shown any signs of jealousy, indeed her attitude was the usual goofy labrador snuffling around at the bottom of his high chair looking for scraps and wagging her tail while she did so. One day I was sitting on one side of the lounge with my labrador at my feet, watching my son at about 12/14 months of age climbing on the sofa at the other side of the room and bouncing up and down and laughing as he did so. In a split second the dog leapt up flew across the room and bit my son on the side of his face. Fortunately it was not a major bite, more like a small nip but it has left him with a small scar on one side of his eye. There was no provocation, nothing unusual going on, a totally normal afternoon indoors with the baby and the two dogs.

So should we have immediately put her to sleep? Many would say yes we should have done. Well we didn't, from that day onward she wore a muzzle from the moment I got up (before getting my son out of his cot) until the baby was put to bed in the evening. If for any reason I had to get my son up the dog would be shut in another room. She lived for another 8 years and by the time my child was about 3 we had a second baby so in total the dog wore the muzzle for about 6 of those 8 remaining years. She never rubbed at the muzzle, she never complained, she joined in all family activities as before, and she never growled or threatened either of the children ever again, but she did still occasionally mutter at the terrier, but then so did I! She would put her nose straight into the muzzle herself when I appeared in the mornings.

I think her life was still happy and fulfilled, and eventually she did become a very good and loyal companion to the boys and would trail around after them all day long in the summer out in the garden. She would even leap in the paddling pool to play with them.

Were we cruel to muzzle her like that? Were we wrong to have kept her after that first unprovoked attack on a very small child. I am only posting this as an example of how a dog can be muzzled without any adverse effects on its quality of life or having to be shut out in a yard like it seems a lot of family dogs are. I think half the owners of these dogs do not really care much for their dogs at all if the new regulations are enough to warrant dumping their dogs, having them put down etc. etc.

Ducks behind the parapet and awaits the attack.:rolleyes:

Hes still alive because it was a lab and not an XL bully that bit him.
 

gunnergundog

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Hes still alive because it was a lab and not an XL bully that bit him.
Precisely! Because the bite force of a lab is a lot less than that of an xl and therefore is unlikely to do anywhere near as much damage bite for bite over a specific timeframe.

Also....I don't think XLs existed when Mrs Jingle got married! ☺️;)
 

Mrs. Jingle

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Plus the dog jumped off him before I had even reached them from across the room. She immediately dropped to the floor cowering, she had never been hit so we can only assume she immediately realized she had done something very wrong.

Had it been an xl bully I doubt she would have let go of his head and highly unlikely I would have had the strength to pull that type of dogs powerful jaws apart either. 😕
 

paddy555

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I'm utterly baffled as lots of us muzzle, and a properly muzzle trained dog is happy to see its muzzle and has no issues wearing it
we don't have many bullies around here but I saw my first one in town today. The slightly older male owner was sitting on a bench in the market place, dog was sitting, never moved, was very calm and quiet and had a lead and a muzzle. Perfect behaviour from the dog, it seemed perfectly happy with the muzzle on. They sat watching the world go by for a long time. Nice to see someone just getting on and complying.
 

cauda equina

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Caroline said: "I think people are just so scared ahead of these changed with XL Bullies. It's so ambiguous, people just don't know what they're meant to do. It's the fear factor.

If they don't know what they're meant to do then they jolly well ought to, it's not complicated
It's probably more a matter of cba than don't know
 

Smitty

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I think I saw 2 on Sunday afternoon with a man aound 30. Neither dog was muzzled. I was fortunately on the other side of a wide main road with my dog who was busy sniffing things in the verge. The dogs clocked us from quite a distance and just sort of "locked on", the chap wound each lead around his hand and wrist several times but was having difficulty hanging onto them despite appearing quite strong. I have no idea what would have happened if he had met another dog head on.
 

Arzada

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And a vet who was punched in the face needing 3 stitches by one of the 5 owners of a XLB whose life the vet failed to save. In this case the attacker was jailed.

 

paddy555

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And a vet who was punched in the face needing 3 stitches by one of the 5 owners of a XLB whose life the vet failed to save. In this case the attacker was jailed.

I saw that a few days ago. Seems some of the owners are just as vicious as some of the dogs. :mad:
 

CanteringCarrot

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So, I took my Cane Corso to the vet today for some jabs and annual heart worm test. She was nervous at the clinic, but the last time she was there was her spay, so I wasn't surprised to find her a bit uneasy. With my Lab the vet could probably chop off her legs with no anesthesia and she'd still be jolly as a jolly thing as long as someone has treats 🤣
but the CC is a bit more sensitive and aware.

When a vet tech approached her in the exam room she (my dog) was nervous, tried to back away, and shook a bit (like nervous shaking/shivers), so we agreed that I would hold her/stay by her head for the jabs and blood test. They also suggested a muzzle which I accepted and put on her with no issue and she could still have this canned liquid squirt cheese (🤮) treat thing though it. She was fine.

Nervous dogs or scared dogs can lash out and although she never has, if everyone in the room feels safer, I'll stick the muzzle on.

Got me thinking of this thread and certain types of people (not participants in this thread) that would decline or say, "My baby would never."

I do think I will try to schedule her appointments with another vet there from now on (was not that one today) because she is totally at ease with him.

It's definitely something about the vet's office and certain people there.

The other day we were in a very large home improvement store, and everyone was friend. She was being a little social butterfly and I almost wish I had a muzzle on her because then so many people wouldn't have stopped me or wanted to ask me about her (breed, age, etc) 🤣




Tl:dr my dog wore a muzzle and no one was traumatized or degraded.
 

skinnydipper

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Nervous dogs or scared dogs can lash out and although she never has, if everyone in the room feels safer, I'll stick the muzzle on.

I always muzzled my last dog for vet visits, for everyone's comfort and safety. Although he had never done anything to her one vet was terrified of him and would try and climb the wall behind her backwards and another was so sure he liked her, she would put her hand over his head to stroke him.
 

misst

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I have to muzzle my 5.5kg terrier for the vet - I worry for the staff. Their hands are precious in their line of work and even a warning nip can be serious. I did have an incident when my old vet saw him for his first vet check. I said lets just pop his muzzle on as he is looking nervous and the rehome centre said he might need one. "OH don't worry said vet, I've dealt with bigger and uglier" - OUCH! Please put the muzzle on! There was no damage but he nipped hard. Typical male arrogance thinking they could "deal" with him.
 

splashgirl45

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Rather like my old vet when we took our feral cat for treatment, we had managed to get him a bit handled by us so i said he should be ok if I hold him and vet said I’m good with cats he will be fine. Vet and nurse had lovely scratches down their arms and cat was doing wall of death round the office . When we finally caught him and put him back in the carrier vet gave us some antiseptic cream for the cats injury. Looking back it was quite funny to see the chaos but at the time I was upset for our cat as he didn’t need that trauma. I fully expected him to run off when I opened the carrier back at the yard but he was all over us and more friendly than before..bless him we lost him at 15 a good age for an outdoor cat
 

skinnydipper

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Rather like my old vet when we took our feral cat for treatment, we had managed to get him a bit handled by us so i said he should be ok if I hold him and vet said I’m good with cats he will be fine. Vet and nurse had lovely scratches down their arms and cat was doing wall of death round the office . When we finally caught him and put him back in the carrier vet gave us some antiseptic cream for the cats injury. Looking back it was quite funny to see the chaos but at the time I was upset for our cat as he didn’t need that trauma. I fully expected him to run off when I opened the carrier back at the yard but he was all over us and more friendly than before..bless him we lost him at 15 a good age for an outdoor cat

I had to take my cat to the vets during lockdown and I wasn't allowed in. She is not a cat that likes to be picked up or held. I knew it wasn't going well when I saw her at the window, loose.
 
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