Another fatal dog attack

[sarah.oxford]

I've seen the usual 3 xl bullies around here since the new legislation came in.
2 were unmuzzled, and the other was wearing a Baskerville muzzle several sizes too small, so the muzzle was touching all the way around and the dog was unable to open it's mouth at all.

 

[Jenko109]

I muzzle my lurcher at the vet.

She has never shown aggression at the vet, however she is so very scared that I cannot be certain that she would not react out of fear.

She also wears a muzzle in the car as she can be a bit mardy with my other dogs on occasion. She is a bit sensitive about her space and they have to share the boot.

Quite happy to wear her muzzle in both scenarios.

 

[Pippity]

I had to take my cat to the vets during lockdown and I wasn't allowed in. She is not a cat that likes to be picked up or held. I knew it wasn't going well when I saw her at the window, loose.

I had a vet who was convinced she could calm Poppy down, and she just needed a few minutes to relax and acclimatise.

Yeah, that didn't work. That was when it was added to Poppy's notes that she MUST be left in her basket, and the vet must be assisted by a nurse with protective gear.

 

[scruffyponies]

Caroline said: "I think people are just so scared ahead of these changed with XL Bullies. It's so ambiguous, people just don't know what they're meant to do. It's the fear factor.

If they don't know what they're meant to do then they jolly well ought to, it's not complicated
It's probably more a matter of cba than don't know

I think this is totally unfair.

If you have a cross-breed dog which is not an XL bully, the directions as to whether you should exempt are too vague, and NOBODY will tell you if your dog is 'type'. There are lots of decent owners who don't know whether the law is supposed to apply to their dog, and are terrified of the consequences of anyone thinking that it should.

Most of those going through hell have British bulldog cross-breeds (especially Old English, Dorset etc, who have been bred back to pre 'KC standards' health), but I have seen people with x-bred sharpei, labarador, dane, rottweiler and similar all considering exemption based on how likely it is that their dog will be reported (family feuds, hateful neighbours etc). I have even seen clearly under-height staffies being exempted on the grounds that it prevents the dog being seized and kept for a prolonged period before being finally released.

The police know who the problem owners are and most have no intention of using this law except when they need an excuse. However the government are making a great deal of money at the expense of ordinary owners, and a great many innocent dogs are already dead as a result.

 

[cauda equina]

I understood her to be talking about XLBs since that was the subject of the article, not large dogs in general

 

[scruffyponies]

I understood her to be talking about XLBs since that was the subject of the article, not large dogs in general

If you read the DEFRA rules, any large dog which meets their (far too subjective) 'type' description can be taken and euthanased, so your family lab x staffie is VERY likely to need to be exempted and kept under XL bully rules if you don't want to risk losing your dog.

A high proportion of the dogs being exempted aren't XL bullies or anything like one.

 

[I'm Dun]

I'd have no issues if every dog with enough bite power to kill a human had to be muzzled. Makes no odds to the dog if done properly and would prevent any fatal attacks. Surely its better to have the very minor hassle of muzzling in public if it means that lives are saved?

 

[bonny]

If you read the DEFRA rules, any large dog which meets their (far too subjective) 'type' description can be taken and euthanased, so your family lab x staffie is VERY likely to need to be exempted and kept under XL bully rules if you don't want to risk losing your dog.

A high proportion of the dogs being exempted aren't XL bullies or anything like one.

How do you know which dogs are being exempted and what breed they are ?

 

[CorvusCorax]

What's so awful about people with dogs of type (x-breeds falling under APBT measurements has been a thing for 30 years) being responsible and making mitigations?

And do we have any stats of dead/PTS dogs so far?

 

[skinnydipper]

If you read the DEFRA rules, any large dog which meets their (far too subjective) 'type' description can be taken and euthanased, so your family lab x staffie is VERY likely to need to be exempted and kept under XL bully rules if you don't want to risk losing your dog.

A high proportion of the dogs being exempted aren't XL bullies or anything like one.

If you are worried about your own dogs, ask your local Dog Liaison officer for advice.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

If you are worried about your own dogs, ask your local Dog Liaison officer for advice.

The problem with this is assuming that they'll give proper advice, and would their advice hold up? If the police somewhere, whether it's local or whilst traveling within country, identify your dog as "type" are they going to care what the local Dog Liaison officer said? Assuming that you have a local DLO. Is there one everywhere now? I really do not know.

Would the DLO give you official certified paperwork stating your dog is exempt or not of type? How does that work?

I guess maybe someone should ask their local DLO and report back? I'm curious about what advice they would give.

I'm playing devil's advocate a bit, I'll admit.

I also get the, "muzzle every dog that has the ability to kill or maim a human being" but it's also crossing over into "nanny state" stuff for me. However, I really do feel like that is/is going to be the way of England, if not the entire UK. Pros and cons to that.

Of course the public needs some protections, but will it take away our abilities to be responsible on our own without the government telling us to be? Maybe we need the government to micro manage us, so to speak, because we're idiots. It just crosses over into some territory that makes me put on my tin foil hate for a moment. Will we lose a great deal of self autonomy?

I don't know. It's hard because something has to be done, obviously, but I'm also curious to see how/if it all snowballs.

 

[skinnydipper]

If the police somewhere, whether it's local or whilst traveling within country, identify your dog as "type" are they going to care what the local Dog Liaison officer said?

local Dog Liaison Officer is the Police.

 

[skinnydipper]

I guess maybe someone should ask their local DLO and report back? I'm curious about what advice they would give.

From a public group on FB

"I eventually managed to get the dog wardens email who I thought would just brush me off like the others but she didn’t! She was really lovely and completely got where I was coming from. Luckily for me she was due to have a meeting with the dog liaison officer so said if I sent her some pics she would see what the DLOs opinion was - it will be the DLO who will be assessing after the 31st! Anyway today she called and said they both felt that she doesn’t meet the criteria for exemption - "

 

[ester]

If you read the DEFRA rules, any large dog which meets their (far too subjective) 'type' description can be taken and euthanased, so your family lab x staffie is VERY likely to need to be exempted and kept under XL bully rules if you don't want to risk losing your dog.

A high proportion of the dogs being exempted aren't XL bullies or anything like one.

Surely the labxstaffies were already at risk of type under the pit description more so than they will be over the xl bully one?

 

[equinerebel]

I always muzzle my collie for the vets. She is an anxious dog and it protects everyone. She’s been muzzle trained since a young age. I don’t know why XL owners are acting like it’s cruel.

Muzzle train your dogs.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

local Dog Liaison Officer is the Police.

I know that, but I guess I just don't expect or assume consistency across the force, and will the DLO provide paperwork? I could say, "Police officer x said that my dog is or isn't this type" but Police officer y could essentially say, "cool story" if you see what I mean.

 

[I'm Dun]

Surely the labxstaffies were already at risk of type under the pit description more so than they will be over the xl bully one?

They must have been, some of them look identical to pits and pit crosses I've seen, even if genetically they arent.

 

[cbmcts]

Because I spend a lot of time in and about rescue kennels, I'm seeing the decisions and debates about what is and isn't of type. One 8 month old bitch had an assessment last week - pointless if you ask me, as she is so obviously an xl in appearance even though she has not put a paw wrong in kennels - by somebody brought in by a national rescue but not an official DLO as apparently the police will only get involved if there is an incident. Understandable due to resources but it does open up a can of worms as to whose word/qualification stands if there is a dispute.

Carla Lane got an injunction earlier this month pending a further court hearing about xls already in rescue and as I understand it, the possibility of being able to make them 'sanctuary' dogs rather than automatic PTS https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/uk-news/240-xl-bullies-saved-being-28373207 Do I agree with this? I'm not sure because while I think that PTS is never a welfare issue, I also see how much of their heart and soul those involved in rescue put into it and how upsetting it is for them.

Cantering Carrot, as does Scruffy Ponies also makes sense as to where does it stop? It's not feasible (or logical) to outlaw every breed that may cause a problem when the real problem has two legs and is on the end of the lead. Where is the personal responsibility in this? Any dog can do damage - obviously some can do more - but why are individuals and society as a whole not taking responsibility for their choices and actions or lack of them? Demonising a type of dog does not make people safer indefinitely as the irresponsible types will always move onto another breed or type that will be badly bred, poorly reared and the reports of attacks/actual injuries will start again. The laws are in place to enforce responsible, safe dog ownership but they are not used and once this flurry of outrage passes, this extension of the law will be the same I fear. It's no consolation to those injured or killed, that the dog can be PTS quicker and/or the owner prosecuted especially as this has been possible since 1991 already for any breed...

 

[skinnydipper]

There has always been other breeds that could potentially be a problem, long before the advent of XL bullies, they weren't responsible for the percentage of deaths and injuries caused by XLBs

 

[Jenko109]

What breed do you think these irresponsible owners had before they had XL types?

Because it would not have been an Italian Greyhound now would it

 

[splashgirl45]

While I agree most of the fault lies with the owners but it seems that there is something in these dogs that flips when they are more mature. So many of the attacks have been in the home which might still continue as the rules of muzzling and on lead will only stop the attacks in public.. I still think there ought to be more publicity explaining the way a dog should be bought up and making the point that they are animals and therefore unpredictable and shouldn’t be left with children no matter what breed but especially the large breeds. There was a case a while ago when a jack russell attacked a baby , that should never have been possible but the parents had left the baby and the dog alone so it did . many years ago babies were put outside in the summer to get a bit of fresh air, they used to put a net over the pram so cats couldn’t get to the baby… we seem to have forgotten that animals can harm us

 

[cauda equina]

The fault does lie with the owners but there will always be bad people about; you can't legislate against antisocial dispositions, or lock up all potential wrongdoers
Of course some dangerous dogs are innocently owned by people simply out of their depth, but bad people will use 'tools' to achieve their ends and it makes sense to get those tools out of circulation
Butter knives are fine, Bowie knives are not

 

[cbmcts]

There has always been other breeds that could potentially be a problem, long before the advent of XL bullies, they weren't responsible for the percentage of deaths and injuries caused by XLBs

That's true and xls are a particular issue but the lousy owners are a large part of it too.

What breed do you think these irresponsible owners had before they had XL types?

Because it would not have been an Italian Greyhound now would it

Nope Many of them didn't have dogs before Covid or weren't breeding from anything with legs and a tail but I worry that any large 'furbaby', mastiffy type, anything larger than a toy breed would be dangerous in their hands.

I've been sifting through applications for a litter of large breed pups in rescue - 90% of the apps were terrifying in the unsuitability of the home and the naivety of the applicants. I thought I was pretty unshockable but I've spent days going 'are you for real' and shaking my head. These are not the stereotypical status dog type of owners but the lack of awareness of their situation, resources, experience and abilities added to a scary level of entitlement to a pup is unbelievable.

 

[skinnydipper]

 

[skinnydipper]

 

[splashgirl45]

What a surprise !!!! just shows how stupid people are, why rehome a large dog that you don’t know when you have children. I wouldn’t rehome an unknown large dog as I have small dogs and wouldn’t take the risk

 

[cauda equina]

It makes you wonder if these people don't read or listen to any news or are at all aware of the sort of incidents precipitated the ban

 

[Smitty]

It makes you wonder if these people don't read or listen to any news or are at all aware of the sort of incidents precipitated the ban

This exactly. Have they been on another planet for the last 3 years?

 

[Cinnamontoast]

What breed do you think these irresponsible owners had before they had XL types?

Because it would not have been an Italian Greyhound now would it

Round here, it was staffie-one being encouraged to swing from tree branches, then it was mastiffs cos they’re bigger and badder, innit? The molosser (?) from Harry Potter lived near here too (I imagine there were many). The guy walking it was talking to me one day from the other side of the street, I had Zak with me so didn’t approach.

 

[Clodagh]

They must have been, some of them look identical to pits and pit crosses I've seen, even if genetically they arent.

I suspect that most of them genetically are, tbh. Were there any lab x staffs before pits were banned?