Another fatal dog attack

[skinnydipper]

There was a letter to the Times yesterday from a dog warden who was calling for dog wardens to be able to carry tazers to use in the case of a dog attack.

With a dog the size and strength of an XL Bully it is difficult for an unarmed person to get them off the victim and subdue them, and currently the only option is waiting for a police firearms unit to arrive which can take some time (possibly too long for the victim). Presumably there would be a risk of killing the dog with a tazer, but in that sort of dog attack the dog is likely to be destroyed as a result anyway (either by the police firearms unit, or the result of a court order).

I don't think I'd be too bothered about the dog getting killed in those circumstances.

 

[Clodagh]

B

I don't think I'd be too bothered about the dog getting killed in those circumstances.

me neither, but many people are.

 

[CorvusCorax]

One of dogs I was contacted about apparently bit the wife after she stuck her hand into a fight. Having also been bitten whilst sticking my hand into a dog fight, I'm not going to say all such dogs should be put to sleep, because personally it was my fault for leaving a door open and putting my hand in, rather than a bunch of keys that I had in my other hand, I didn't for one minute consider PTS a dog I'd had for ten years, it wasn't a bad bite and he didn't clamp down, he immediately withdrew when he realised it wasn't what he thought it was.

Almost every time I've been bitten has been my own fault/except for a couple of sneaky nips on my arse from windy show dogs.

 

[Clodagh]

One of dogs I was contacted about apparently bit the wife after she stuck her hand into a fight. Having also been bitten whilst sticking my hand into a dog fight, I'm not going to say all such dogs should be put to sleep, because personally it was my fault for leaving a door open and putting my hand in, rather than a bunch of keys that I had in my other hand, I didn't for one minute consider PTS a dog I'd had for ten years, it wasn't a bad bite and he didn't clamp down, he immediately withdrew when he realised it wasn't what he thought it was.

Almost every time I've been bitten has been my own fault/except for a couple of sneaky nips on my arse from windy show dogs.

But if you decided to rehome your dogs, or chuck them into a rescue kennel environment, would you expect anyone else to deal?
I know Ffee is a Labrador, and a real squishmallow of a dog but she cannot be hendled at the vets. It’s embarrassing. She has never bitten anyone because I totally set her up to succeed but I’d never rehome her, and if OH and I dropped dead tomorrow she’d be PTS before going elsewhere.

 

[oldandgold]

But what would constitute a temperament test - and indeed who would get that job. From all the recent videos of these dogs attacking they have all chased down the human,
so their intention is to attack - would anyone want to do a temperament test on those dogs?

 

[Goldenstar]

The first thing is to try to do something quickly to reduce the number of attacks on people where the dogs are in public places or are loose on someone else’s property because they have strayed there .

 

[AmyMay]

Yes

links to the research on this site

Have I missed the bit where they mention a ‘faulty gene’?

 

[stormox]

Indeed, which is why if they're asked to put a dog down, they should just do it. As long as the bill is paid, there's no need to ask questions.

Except you sign up to be a vet to save and cure animals not kill them.
Maybe if an independent behaviorist has assessed the dog they should PTS but not just on an owners whim, so many owners just change their minds, get too busy, whatever. Look at the numbers dumped this past year or two.

 

[Quigleyandme]

The video of the sustained attack on the boy just kicking his football in his own driveway is horrific. The Preloved ads are heart breaking. Stupid people buying dogs that are entirely unsuitable for their environment. The last ad is very concerning as not only has the owner been heavy handed with the dog but the advertiser thinks he may be suitable as a working dog. Working at baiting bulls is that? Now that a ban is on the table I feel torn. I recall pit bull type dogs being held in kennels for years whilst their breed was being determined with all the vigour of a wounded snail. I think I would prefer existing dogs to have a mandatory temperament test, to be de-sexed, registered, muzzled in public and on a harness and short lead in the care of an adult person and further breeding, import and ownership banned. I’d also like to see any person allowing their dog to roam face a mandatory two year jail sentence and have their dog seized and destroyed. Your average garden fence is not going to keep 60kg of muscle contained so a home suitability check might be another deterrent. When Mr and Mrs Stupid are told they need to have a 8’ hurricane proof chain link fence with anti-climb profile in order to keep their soft as butter ikkle fur baby they may think twice.

 

[kathantoinette]

This was on my FB feed…an interesting read

Finding Kimbo

At Bully Watch, we began delving into the pedigrees—essentially, the family trees—of dogs from the most well-known Bully XL kennels across the UK. Our investigation steered us down a trail where on…

bullywatch.link

 

[gunnergundog]

But what would constitute a temperament test - and indeed who would get that job. From all the recent videos of these dogs attacking they have all chased down the human,
so their intention is to attack - would anyone want to do a temperament test on those dogs?

The Begleitungshund test used to be the acknowledged temperament test before dogs could go forwards to do Schutzhund; this, or an adaptation therof, would be a starting point. CorvusCorax could advise more as to appropriateness.

 

[I'm Dun]

Have I missed the bit where they mention a ‘faulty gene’?

1. They are Genetically Aggressive: A significant number of these breeding dogs are kin to those infamous for producing human-aggressive progeny. Despite this alarming lineage, such breeding dogs are extensively utilized in the UK. A case in point is a breeding female known to have produced multiple human-aggressive dogs, one of which fatally attacked its owner. Notably, this particular bitch had fighting dogs in her pedigree going back 6-7 generations. Her progeny is notably popular in the UK.

Theres research ongoing to see if they have the A22 gene which causes aggression in Malis or something similar.

 

[SilverLinings]

Interestingly XL Bullys are already banned in UAE and Turkey, and restricted in RoI (where they must be muzzled and on a short lead in public):

"But they have already been banned in other countries.

American bullies are illegal in Turkey and the United Arab Emirates.

The breed is also restricted in some countries, including the Republic of Ireland, where any American Bully must be muzzled and on a leash no longer than 2m (6ft 7in) when out in public."

Taken from the BBC News website, where there are a lot of interviews with owners saying the ban is only being considered due to 'bad perceptions' and 'negative publicity' about the breed. I would have a lot more sympathy for owners if they acknowledged the fact that the breed has been responsible for a considerable number of attacks on dogs and humans, rather than just claiming that the breed/their dog is being unfairly picked on.

 

[SilverLinings]

Apparently the two dogs that killed the man in Stoke had previous form, and the owner had been cautioned:

A resident living near the scene of yesterday's attack said that in March, a woman and her dog had been seen being chased into a shop by the same two dogs which had killed Ian Price.

"It was carnage - the two dogs were after her dog," the local, who wished to remain anonymous, said. "I think they had taken a few nips at him."

"The woman was hysterical but she was unhurt," they added.

The resident said police had been called to the incident, which also saw customers jumping over the shop's counter for protection, and the dogs' owner had been given a caution.

Another resident, David Morrell, said: "This morning, to find out that two dogs have attacked a guy in the street is just totally shocking."

I hope he was told by the police at that point that the dogs should be muzzled in public, but either way clearly the owner didn't care enough to behave responsibly

 

[Spotherisk]

I know someone who has a not bully that was booked in to be PTS and was 'saved' by a vet nurse and the person I know ended up 'rescuing' it. It's not aggressive but has a litany of health issues.

Our Labrador had been taken to the vet to be pts due to a skin condition. Vet nurse ‘saved’ it instead. We put her on what we considered to be the best food, and didn’t kennel her on bare concrete and there’s been no sign of a skin problem since.

 

[Chucho]

It's hard to imagine any new laws will make a difference when the existing ones aren't being enforced properly. I wonder what was being done to ensure an owner of two dogs with that history, regardless of breed, complied with the muzzle order.

 

[CorvusCorax]

But what would constitute a temperament test - and indeed who would get that job. From all the recent videos of these dogs attacking they have all chased down the human,
so their intention is to attack - would anyone want to do a temperament test on those dogs?

I test dogs on a weekly basis, based on temperament tests which have been carried out all over the world for decades. There's lots of things you can do. You can usually read the sketchy ones between the car and the field.

 

[CorvusCorax]

The Begleitungshund test used to be the acknowledged temperament test before dogs could go forwards to do Schutzhund; this, or an adaptation therof, would be a starting point. CorvusCorax could advise more as to appropriateness.

Yes, I use a truncated/mixed version of the BH and the new WB test to assess dogs.

All of my own dogs have passed BH.

 

[BallyRoanBaubles]

But if you decided to rehome your dogs, or chuck them into a rescue kennel environment, would you expect anyone else to deal?
I know Ffee is a Labrador, and a real squishmallow of a dog but she cannot be hendled at the vets. It’s embarrassing. She has never bitten anyone because I totally set her up to succeed but I’d never rehome her, and if OH and I dropped dead tomorrow she’d be PTS before going elsewhere.

My lab is exactly the same as this, I wonder if they are related somewhere

 

[Crazy_cat_lady]

Obviously can't guarantee reliability, and I don't want to speak badly of someone who died but it sounds like the writing was on the wall with all the Klaxons blaring red

How dog walker savaged to death was pounced on by a giant pit bull

Nuzzling together, tender cheek by chestnut brown jowl, this is the first photograph of dog walker Natasha Johnston with Stan - the humungous bull terrier that savaged her to death in January.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Should have been allowed to be PTS after biting the child

 

[SkylarkAscending]

Obviously can't guarantee reliability, and I don't want to speak badly of someone who died but it sounds like the writing was on the wall with all the Klaxons blaring red

How dog walker savaged to death was pounced on by a giant pit bull

Nuzzling together, tender cheek by chestnut brown jowl, this is the first photograph of dog walker Natasha Johnston with Stan - the humungous bull terrier that savaged her to death in January.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Should have been allowed to be PTS after biting the child

No disrespect @Crazy_cat_lady, I understand your sentiment and caveats entirely, but I would never trust anything that this foul prejudiced rag said

Against my better judgment, I read the article and - apart from a sense of fury at the ignorant crap they wrote - nothing has changed

 

[cobgoblin]

Obviously can't guarantee reliability, and I don't want to speak badly of someone who died but it sounds like the writing was on the wall with all the Klaxons blaring red

How dog walker savaged to death was pounced on by a giant pit bull

Nuzzling together, tender cheek by chestnut brown jowl, this is the first photograph of dog walker Natasha Johnston with Stan - the humungous bull terrier that savaged her to death in January.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Should have been allowed to be PTS after biting the child

What a nightmare!

 

[CorvusCorax]

It's a shocking bit of writing, but at least there's a bit of a timeline and hopefully fills in some detail for people/gets rid of some of the speculation.

Why the chuff wasn't DNA taken and why on earth were they apparently cleaning out Stan's kennel while he was in it??? I'd have thought a dog like that would be in a kennel with hatches.

 

[marmalade76]

Except you sign up to be a vet to save and cure animals not kill them.
Maybe if an independent behaviorist has assessed the dog they should PTS but not just on an owners whim, so many owners just change their minds, get too busy, whatever. Look at the numbers dumped this past year or two.

It's considerably more responsible to take a dog to be PTS than to dump it on the side of the road or take it to over-filled rescue centres, don't you think? Unless the vet in question can guarantee a suitable home for life, they should do as asked and what they've been paid for.

 

[marmalade76]

What a nightmare!

Horrific.

Again, a dog that was meant to be put down but was "rescued" instead.

 

[CorvusCorax]

If you cut through the bleddy awful hyperbole, there's some interesting points.

If what the article said is true, the dog had tested the water at least twice. I'm not sure why the Leonberg owner and other obviously well heeled clients thought that was a good situation for their own dogs to be in.

Even 'good dogs' can get caught up in an attack in the heat of the moment (see reference to up to four dogs being involved according to an eyewitness)

I hate the term 'revenge', but some dogs absolutely do hold on to things and then shoot their shot when their perceived 'adversary' is vulnerable, if they have their backs turned for example. It's primal stuff, 'wolf shit' as call it and IME it's genetic and I hate it as a trait.

 

[marmalade76]

If you cut through the bleddy awful hyperbole, there's some interesting points.

If what the article said is true, the dog had tested the water at least twice. I'm not sure why the Leonberg owner and other obviously well heeled clients thought that was a good situation for their own dogs to be in.

Even 'good dogs' can get caught up in an attack in the heat of the moment (see reference to up to four dogs being involved according to an eyewitness)

I hate the term 'revenge', but some dogs absolutely do hold on to things and then shoot their shot when their perceived 'adversary' is vulnerable, if they have their backs turned for example. It's primal stuff, 'wolf shit' as call it and IME it's genetic and I hate it as a trait.

If it is all correct, she was massively irresponsible.

 

[ycbm]

I hate the term 'revenge', but some dogs absolutely do hold on to things and then shoot their shot when their perceived 'adversary' is vulnerable, if they have their backs turned for example. It's primal stuff, 'wolf shit' as call it and IME it's genetic and I hate it as a trait.

I had no idea that was a thing
.

 

[twiggy2]

It's considerably more responsible to take a dog to be PTS than to dump it on the side of the road or take it to over-filled rescue centres, don't you think? Unless the vet in question can guarantee a suitable home for life, they should do as asked and what they've been paid for.

That's my thinking and also that vets are not behaviourist, I have repeatedly seen some very scary moments when vets and nurses misread the body language of a dog

If you cut through the bleddy awful hyperbole, there's some interesting points.

If what the article said is true, the dog had tested the water at least twice. I'm not sure why the Leonberg owner and other obviously well heeled clients thought that was a good situation for their own dogs to be in.

Even 'good dogs' can get caught up in an attack in the heat of the moment (see reference to up to four dogs being involved according to an eyewitness)

I hate the term 'revenge', but some dogs absolutely do hold on to things and then shoot their shot when their perceived 'adversary' is vulnerable, if they have their backs turned for example. It's primal stuff, 'wolf shit' as call it and IME it's genetic and I hate it as a trait.

I would be more likely to think the dog was full of adrenalin and 'buzzing' and his owner was giving off some pretty unhappy vibes, I don't believe 'revenge' is an emotion dogs experience, they are more in the moment than that, I do believe they experience physical emotion far more intensely than we do and it drives behaviours to a huge extent. For example red zone behaviours, fear responses etc.
I haven't worked that very well so I hope it makes sense.

 

[Clodagh]

I had no idea that was a thing
.

Me neither.
Dreadful bit of reporting, and so full of rubbish extras, yet interesting nonetheless.