Another fatal dog attack

[Sandstone1]

She was walking far too many dogs together. Although some of the blame must be with the owners who should have known how many dogs she was walking together and the breeds. No way could she be in control of so many. While the Pit bull killed her in would have been far less likely to have happened if he was walked alone. Sadly a accident waiting to happen.
So many dog walkers walk too many dogs together and can not be in control. Some strict laws for dog walkers needs to be brought in.

 

[Goldenstar]

Dogs are clever that’s why they joined us and allowed us to train them ,they are awesome at being dogs and yes absolutely they don't always react in the moment some will plan and wait .
You can see this trait with toys Pearl is extremely capable of forming a plan with up to three steps to gain control of a toy that Drams got it’s extremely interesting to watch this type of stuff.

The article is grim reading , why oh why did she take that dog on a group walk with clients dogs it was madness .
She sounds like a kind woman who thought that love would solve everything.
It had bitten her twice it’s so tragic and sad her desire to be the dogs saviour got her killed .
I think in cases like this where the circumstances are so serious an order to destroy a dog should be able to be made quickly and the dog PTS just because it’s a danger to people managing it while the slow wheels of the law grind round .There was no need for it to be in kennels biting through shovels it’s should have been quickly put an end to .

If it is all correct, she was massively irresponsible.

Yes she was fully responsible for her own death .
She is responsible for her clients dogs being at risk , there’s no way she should have had a dog with a bite history on a clients dog walk.
People who use dog walkers need to wise up and really know what’s going on and that sort of mass free for all needs to be prohibited .

 

[splashgirl45]

The interview with the Leonburgers owner wasn’t written by the DM and she said the dog had already bitten her twice and she was surprised that she had taken the dog with the others . From the written stuff it says he was off lead as well which for a dog you have had for 10 days seems very odd.. it seems that 2 dogs are still being held , they c should either be put down or returned to their owners, what’s the point of keeping them in limbo, just make a decision

 

[tristar]

The video of the sustained attack on the boy just kicking his football in his own driveway is horrific. The Preloved ads are heart breaking. Stupid people buying dogs that are entirely unsuitable for their environment. The last ad is very concerning as not only has the owner been heavy handed with the dog but the advertiser thinks he may be suitable as a working dog. Working at baiting bulls is that? Now that a ban is on the table I feel torn. I recall pit bull type dogs being held in kennels for years whilst their breed was being determined with all the vigour of a wounded snail. I think I would prefer existing dogs to have a mandatory temperament test, to be de-sexed, registered, muzzled in public and on a harness and short lead in the care of an adult person and further breeding, import and ownership banned. I’d also like to see any person allowing their dog to roam face a mandatory two year jail sentence and have their dog seized and destroyed. Your average garden fence is not going to keep 60kg of muscle contained so a home suitability check might be another deterrent. When Mr and Mrs Stupid are told they need to have a 8’ hurricane proof chain link fence with anti-climb profile in order to keep their soft as butter ikkle fur baby they may think twice.

it is horrific that attack, cause the dog could not be beaten off even by several adults, and was`nt that a staffie not even a bully? a lot smaller

it is heartbreaking to see those ads, totally unsuitable environment, then when they break out or get loose and attack, the dogs are blamed and people call for them to be destroyed, as no way can they be trusted, when it humans at fault all the way, these dogs never stood a chance, and the people attacked have no hope of escape once they do attack, its not like you can beat them off, they are too big too strong too aggressive, and too mentally unprepared to cope when they are loose.

all the time it comes back to the breeders churning the things out

they seem to be bred for baiting, attack, not simply guarding or herding, protecting

i doubt if even the owners could call them off


people have dogs and have no control over them all sorts of dogs they cannot even recall them if they just taught the things to come to call it would be a big step, i can call my JR back to me instantly, and he aint gonna chew anyone up, mainly for his own safety and he just comes i did not `train him, how bloody hard is it to do the first and most simple command

 

[skinnydipper]

People who use dog walkers need to wise up and really know what’s going on and that sort of mass free for all needs to be prohibited .

I'm not sure why the Leonberg owner and other obviously well heeled clients thought that was a good situation for their own dogs to be in.

Did they know?

Dons tin hat.

As with behaviourists and trainers anyone can set themselves up as a dog walker. How much experience with dogs and knowledge of dog behaviour do they have?

A local dog walking service seems a bit careless. I was getting my dogs back into the dog bus one day, their van was parked next to mine with dogs aboard and the walker was standing next to it shouting for a missing dog that wasn’t even in sight, managed to lose another dog who was later found dead following RTA, not the only dogs they have managed to lose.

I have started hiring dog fields (it's bliss by the way) one of the places I go to has an adjacent field for hire. Two vans full of dogs will pull into the field, open the doors and it’s a free for all.

When I was still going to the park I would see a dog walker with 2 Staffies from different households charging about, walker didn’t seem at all concerned about letting them run up to other dogs, including the big girl who was on her lead, the dog walker had no idea why she was on a lead. The big girl could have been dog aggressive, ill, frightened of other dogs but whatever the reason, you would think someone who is making a living from caring for other people’s dogs should have the savvy to know that it’s not good practice.

 

[Arzada]

Although some of the blame must be with the owners who should have known how many dogs she was walking together and the breeds.

I don't think that any responsibility at all lies with the owners. If you are at work away from home how would you know. Even if you had CCTV showing the dog being collected/returned you wouldn't know exactly how many dogs, what breed, what size etc are in the panelled van. You might be told that your dog will be walked with x number of dogs, who are x breed, super friendly etc. That might be true. It might remain true. But I imagine that things can change when another owner requests something different, even on the same day, and the walker fits them in by adding to the number of dogs or because another is not being walked that day.

 

[Goldenstar]

We don’t know what the owners of the dogs in this tragedy knew .
But it’s your job to know , no excuses .

Its possible that people think it’s nice for their dogs to socialise whereas in truth it’s dangerous on many levels .
It’s possible it’s because small walking of say up to three dogs is too expensive .
We don’t see this type of group walking situation here but I met an lady in Ayr walking six on a beach early in the morning she could not get some of the dogs away from mine so we ended up talking now those where all friendly easy dogs it’s was fine but if mine had not been fine it could have been a nightmare situation .
The worst I saw on that day was an elderly terrier in the group who could not keep up that dog was not enjoying the experience.
These dog walkers doing mass groups and the owners of the dogs are entrusting the safety of their dogs to the owners of other dogs out and about and that’s a bad idea in this day and age .

 

[Sandstone1]

I don't think that any responsibility at all lies with the owners. If you are at work away from home how would you know. Even if you had CCTV showing the dog being collected/returned you wouldn't know exactly how many dogs, what breed, what size etc are in the panelled van. You might be told that your dog will be walked with x number of dogs, who are x breed, super friendly etc. That might be true. It might remain true. But I imagine that things can change when another owner requests something different, even on the same day, and the walker fits them in by adding to the number of dogs or because another is not being walked that day.

I disagree if you are putting your dogs in the care of a ""professional"" you owe it to your dogs to be 100% sure what they are doing.

 

[TPO]

I thought insurance only covered dog walkers with a max of 4 dogs at a time?

It horrible to speak ill of the dead but imo the blame lies solely with her. She made very bad decisions.

No one with the knowledge to attempt rehabilitation of a dangerous dog would have taken it out, loose, on a pack walk. The decisions and choices the dog walker made prove that she didn't have the knowledge or experience to be doing/attempting to do what she did.

Sadly she paid the ultimate price. Now its those left behind who are suffering.

 

[TPO]

I disagree if you are putting your dogs in the care of a ""professional"" you owe it to your dogs to be 100% sure what they are doing.

I agree in theory, but people lie.

I've seen local dog walkers advertise then bumped into them out walking (recognise their logo on clothes/vans), and they don't appear even halfway competent despite their advertised claims.

I'm more familiar with being lied to by YO. They show and sell you one thing when you view, armed with questions, then once you're there, it's a different story.

 

[AmyMay]

I don't think that any responsibility at all lies with the owners. If you are at work away from home how would you know. Even if you had CCTV showing the dog being collected/returned you wouldn't know exactly how many dogs, what breed, what size etc are in the panelled van. You might be told that your dog will be walked with x number of dogs, who are x breed, super friendly etc. That might be true. It might remain true. But I imagine that things can change when another owner requests something different, even on the same day, and the walker fits them in by adding to the number of dogs or because another is not being walked that day.

Responsibility does (to some degree) lie with owners. You ask the right questions. Obviously if a dog Walker doesn’t adhere to what was agreed to then that’s out of your hands. But an owner has as much responsibility to ensure the safety of their dog as the dog Walker does. (I’m a dog Walker).

 

[Arzada]

I disagree if you are putting your dogs in the care of a ""professional"" you owe it to your dogs to be 100% sure what they are doing.

I agree but there's no way that you can be sure. An owner can't possibly check every single dog walk. They may check initial ones and/or occasional ones. But not every walk. If you had to check every walk you'd be walking the dog yourself.

 

[Arzada]

Responsibility does (to some degree) lie with owners. You ask the right questions. Obviously if a dog Walker doesn’t adhere to what was agreed to then that’s out of your hands. But an owner has as much responsibility to ensure the safety of their dog as the dog Walker does. (I’m a dog Walker).

I know but this only goes so far. It's very hard to trust others with your animal so you choose the best you can find. And yes there are professionals who are completely trustworthy eg I would let you walk my dog (if I had one) but others are not. I hacked out competition horses where I worked while others did not. This was simply because if I was told to ride x route, trot and canter here etc that is exactly what happened. Others did their own thing and didn't get to ride the horses out again.

 

[Sandstone1]

Far too many dog walkers just start up with little knowledge. They may have had a pet dog or two. They walk too many as thats the way they make more money. Walking your own pet dog is very different to walking a pack of mixed breeds, ages and temperaments. I see them in my area and its scary.

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

I am now in a dilemma with our dog walker. Not with the actual person who walks our dog but the person who runs the company, who has posted on FB in sympathy with XL bullies. What about sympathy for people seriously injured and killed by them? Or the people and dogs traumatised by sustained attacks where they were powerless to intervene?

I think I need to have a conversation with the person who takes our dog out, to ensure the risks these dogs can pose is being taken seriously because we do have them in the area we live and I take absolutely no chances. If not, they're done walking our dog.

 

[bonny]

Far too many dog walkers just start up with little knowledge. They may have had a pet dog or two. They walk too many as thats the way they make more money. Walking your own pet dog is very different to walking a pack of mixed breeds, ages and temperaments. I see them in my area and its scary.

I don’t think dog walkers are scary, I see lots of them every day and mostly they have a group of dogs with them but they are normal dogs. Anyone ever seen a dog walkers with a XL Bully ? The woman who was killed is different as it was her own dog that killed her and I think making the discussion about dog walkers is missing the point.

 

[AmyMay]

I am now in a dilemma with our dog walker. Not with the actual person who walks our dog but the person who runs the company, who has posted on FB in sympathy with XL bullies. What about sympathy for people seriously injured and killed by them? Or the people and dogs traumatised by sustained attacks where they were powerless to intervene?

I think I need to have a conversation with the person who takes our dog out, to ensure the risks these dogs can pose is being taken seriously because we do have them in the area we live and I take absolutely no chances.

Providing they are trustworthy, their personal views shouldn’t affect your relationship. One of my clients and I vehemently disagree about the xl-bully issue. It doesn’t spoil or affect our business relationship.

 

[Sandstone1]

This may be contraversial but is it more the type of people who want to own these dogs than the dogs themselves? People with little experience of dogs wanting to own massive strong dogs just because they look tough? I love dogs and have owned a lot but can honestly say I have never had the urge to own one of this type.

 

[Sandstone1]

I don’t think dog walkers are scary, I see lots of them every day and mostly they have a group of dogs with them but they are normal dogs. Anyone ever seen a dog walkers with a XL Bully ? The woman who was killed is different as it was her own dog that killed her and I think making the discussion about dog walkers is missing the point.

I do not think its missing the point as the woman that was killed was walking a lot of dogs. Mixed sizes and breeds and was not in control.
XL bullies are a problem but dealing with people who want to own this type of dog is a bigger issue.
If its not XL bullies it will be another large aggressive breed. We have had pit bulls etc. There will be another designer breed coming along to take their place. I know its not the breed but the owner but there is a type of person who want to own these dogs. Breed traits can be strong too so breeding large dogs such as pit bulls, americain bull dogs etc and crossing them to make this type of dog is the problem.

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

Providing they are trustworthy, their personal views shouldn’t affect your relationship. One of my clients and I vehemently disagree about the xl-bully issue. It doesn’t spoil or affect our business relationship.

I would hope it wouldn't as our walker is lovely and has been so patient with our dog. However it will if their personal views translate into behaviour which doesn't keep my dog safe.

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

I'm interested in how 'demonised' breeds of the past (Rottweilers, German Shepherds etc.) ended up not being banned and why they seem less of a problem these days. Is it just that they got less popular over time? Or were they not as much of a problem?

 

[Sandstone1]

I may be wrong but its the sheer size and power of these bull type crosses that makes them so dangerous? They have massive bite power and do not let go.

 

[scats]

I thought insurance only covered dog walkers with a max of 4 dogs at a time?

It horrible to speak ill of the dead but imo the blame lies solely with her. She made very bad decisions.

No one with the knowledge to attempt rehabilitation of a dangerous dog would have taken it out, loose, on a pack walk. The decisions and choices the dog walker made prove that she didn't have the knowledge or experience to be doing/attempting to do what she did.

Sadly she paid the ultimate price. Now its those left behind who are suffering.

I felt exactly the same when I read the article. Nobody deserves to die like that but talk about putting the pieces in place for your own death. Shockingly poor judgement that could have got other people killed aswell.

It was interesting in the article that when the dog had an altercation with the small terrier earlier on during the walk and it ended up biting the terriers owner when she lifted her dog up out of the way. The Pitt bull owner did the usual blaming someone else’s dog for her own dogs aggression.
I can’t fathom why anyone would take a dog like that out in public, with other dogs and let it off lead.

Thank god no one else was harmed (physically, at least) and that those two horse riders and their horses were ok aswell.

 

[Clodagh]

This may be contraversial but is it more the type of people who want to own these dogs than the dogs themselves? People with little experience of dogs wanting to own massive strong dogs just because they look tough? I love dogs and have owned a lot but can honestly say I have never had the urge to own one of this type.

Well this is exactly hitting the nail on the head. If XL bullies were responsibly bred and kept by sensible people they would be no more dangerous than GSD’s, mastiffs, whatever.

 

[marmalade76]

I'm interested in how 'demonised' breeds of the past (Rottweilers, German Shepherds etc.) ended up not being banned and why they seem less of a problem these days. Is it just that they got less popular over time? Or were they not as much of a problem?

Interesting question. I don't think they ever killed people in the same numbers as pit bulls/bullies and there's probably always been more of them about. Also, neither were bred for fighting/baiting, they're herding/guarding breeds, easier to train and more likely to be obedient.

 

[meleeka]

I'm interested in how 'demonised' breeds of the past (Rottweilers, German Shepherds etc.) ended up not being banned and why they seem less of a problem these days. Is it just that they got less popular over time? Or were they not as much of a problem?

I think the big reason why we don’t hear so much about them is they aren’t fashionable anymore. Most people that own them are passionate about the breed and care about having well behaved dogs. Very few people would choose one just because it looks cool, without being prepared to train it keep it safe. The irresponsible, back yard breeders, or the sort that buys a guard dog from freeads, have moved onto the Bully XL.

They weren’t banned because the numbers weren’t so big, or we just didn’t know about the amount of attacks because there wasn’t FB then.

 

[cauda equina]

Well this is exactly hitting the nail on the head. If XL bullies were responsibly bred and kept by sensible people they would be no more dangerous than GSD’s, mastiffs, whatever.

If XL bullies were 'responsibly bred' would they exist at all?
Are they not basically just massive fighting dogs?

 

[Cortez]

I may be wrong but its the sheer size and power of these bull type crosses that makes them so dangerous? They have massive bite power and do not let go.

This ^^^ precisely. I'm not a bull breed fan, but I have met and got to know many, including pitbull/xl types, and they have very largely been funny, happy, loveable chaps with devoted owners who loved them. I used to have rottweilers and bred a few litters many years ago, and they are the same; happy, wiggly, goofy characters with strong bonds and guarding instincts. HOWEVER, having experienced the pure power and tenacity of grip of the rottweiler through playing with my own, (games of tug only ever ended one way - with ripped toys or rope, and fetch was....interesting), it is the sheer muscular size, weight, bite-power and grip combined with the baiting, ragging/shaking and holding instinct of the pitbull/xl, as well as the tenacity and "game-ness" of the fighting dog that sets them apart. I don't know enough about them to know how trainable they are, but having unfortunately witnessed a full-on organised dog fight in the US, I can tell you that once a pitbull has locked on nobody, not even their owners, can get them to let go, hence the use of bite sticks to pry the jaws apart. The injuries they can inflict are horrific and exponentially beyond the little nips and bruising you'd get from the average dog bite.

 

[splashgirl45]

My friend has to use a dog walker sometimes and she insists that it’s only her dogs that are walked and they must stay on the lead. She is as sure as she can be that this is what happens, she does have a ring doorbell and the walker goes direct from her house with her 2 dogs , she leaves her car at friends house so unlikely to be walking others..

 

[ecb89]

I'm interested in how 'demonised' breeds of the past (Rottweilers, German Shepherds etc.) ended up not being banned and why they seem less of a problem these days. Is it just that they got less popular over time? Or were they not as much of a problem?

The type of irresponsible owner who used to own rotties etc just moved onto XL bullies