Another fatal dog attack

[oldandgold]

Having worked at the dogs trust some years ago dogs were assessed for their suitability. The problem arises when people who are looking for a dog do not always tell the truth about their circumstances
and then don't listen to the advice given. When they get the dog home treat it as if it has always lived with them I know a family who rehomed a dog (not from dogs trust) got him home and gave him a bowl of food and then took it straight off him. Why? because they had been able to do that with previous dogs. Result was one badly bitten hand and dog returned. Was that the dog's fault - no (IMO).

I do think they need to relook at their rehoming policy/PTS, the kennels are going to be overrun with XL Bullies that cannot be rehomed and could in theory be in kennels for up to 12 years possibly, I'm glad I'm not working there any more as I wouldn't honestly want to look after those dogs.

 

[SilverLinings]

I didn't mean to imply the DT hadn't thoroughly assessed the dog, more that there is a problem if the assessments aren't a reliable indicator of future aggression for that breed.

Obviously only the DT and re-homer will know all the details, but if the DT had done their usual checks and the dog passed, and the re-homer had been truthful, then the incident just adds to the argument that the breed can't be 'trusted' (I don't mean to anthropomorphise) as they appear to be liable to serious attacks without prior warning of a behavioural issue.

 

[skinnydipper]

got him home and gave him a bowl of food and then took it straight off him.

I've never understood why people give a dog its food and then stick their hand in the bowl or take it off them, unless they are trying to create a resource guarder.

 

[Quigleyandme]

WARNING: Upsetting Image.
This little boy was the victim of an unprovoked attack by an XLB here in Ireland. He was playing footy with his friends on the estate. There were two children attacked by the same dog four days apart. ETA Sorry. I thought you would need to click on a link to view.

 

[SilverLinings]

@Quigleyandme that picture certainly shows how you only need one bite (especially if it is a dog with a large mouth) to cause significant damage. Even if you can call your dog off, once it has latched on the damage has been done even if the dog does then stop.

 

[ponyparty]

Dogs Trust rehomed an adolescent border collie to my colleague, a first time dog owner, small house and small garden, in the city. He and his partner work all day and have a difficult adolescent child.

It was a beautiful dog and had behavioural issues that could probably have been solved by someone with BC experience, who knows what to expect in an adolescent dog of any breed.

They sent it back with a week. I wondered what on earth Dogs Trust were thinking rehoming such a high energy breed, that tends to need a job, and in the difficult adolescent phase at all, to complete novices

 

[misst]

RSPCA gave my elderly neighbour with a quite reactive shuitzu a medium sized pretty mongrel/ lurcher type dog. Elderly lady put 2 bowls of food down (as she had with previous dog) . Almighty fight. Shuitzu had several severe puncture wounds. Old lady had hand bitten and had to use a broom to beat off the new dog.
She was 82 or 83 at the time. She genuinely had no idea of how to introduce a new dog. It was her fault the fight happened but RSPCA are I believe also at fault
I returned the dog as it was guarding everything in the house. The shuitzu was badly injured. I told them what had happened. The dog was back on their rehoming page " suitable for children over 8 and good with other dogs". It disappeared after I made a phone call and I assume it was moved to another centre

 

[cauda equina]

Britons have started handing in XL bullies to be put down, MPs told

Select committee hears vets and animal rehoming centres could become inundated as owners seek to offload the dogs

www.theguardian.com

 

[cauda equina]

From that article:

Dr David Martin, group head of animal welfare for IVC Evidensia, a global veterinary care provider, said: “We are already getting clients presenting dogs asking for them to be euthanised because they’re concerned about the effects of a ban.”

He said that in many cases, people were concerned about how owning a prohibited breed may affect a housing contract or tenancy agreement. “There is a risk these dogs will be dropped off or abandoned outside veterinary practices,” he said.

Martin also said a number of vets would be uncomfortable destroying healthy animals at the request of their owners. “We are allowed to refuse to euthanise a healthy animal under our code of conduct and as a business, we support all our vets who refuse to euthanise a healthy animal. So I think we’re going to have significant problems,” he said.

An expert from the RSPCA, which opposes a ban, said they had concerns about the emotional impact on staff caring for dogs that could be killed after being outlawed – the organisation estimates it has 110 dogs in its care that could be affected.

“If we end up in a situation where we have to assess and take
dogs and then euthanise them, that is going to come at a huge cost to the emotional wellbeing of our staff, and we do expect to lose staff over this,” said Dr Samantha Gaines, head of companion animals at the RSPCA.


What are vets going to do with the dogs they don't want to pts?
And how do RSPCA staff cope when it comes to putting other animals down - I get the impression it's not a rarity for them
There seems to be an awful lot of emotional capital being spent on these dogs, some of which are probably lovely but no one knows which ones are not until it's too late

 

[CanteringCarrot]

As if being a vet isn't hard enough already. I know that many believe that these dogs shouldn't exist, but even so, when euthanising so many animals, even when you know it's right, there is still an emotional toll. Being a vet is not easy, and the shelters will also have struggles too.

Meanwhile, ass hats continue to be ass hats.


I will say that I remember ages ago my father not liking Pitbulls and him telling me that they'll just turn on you one day. I know a few owners of Pitbulls or mixes (all shelter dogs) who haven't had an issue with theirs, but that's a small sample size.

Anyway, back to what my father said ages ago...it just reminded me of the XL Bully because in many of the news articles, these dogs are seemingly turning on their owners/handlers. Now, we don't have all of the details, so there is that. Some people are idiots around dogs, and some dogs are less tolerant of idiots, so there is that factor too. I just wonder if these dogs are bred to be incredibly dominant and self driven that eventually they feel the need to "override" the owner/handler so to speak.

You do get this in guardian breeds for sure. They were bred to have instincts and think for themselves, so they're not always people pleasers. They execute the job on their own, most of the time. Think about Caucasian Ovcharkas that might guard a flock somewhere and not see a human for who knows how long. Done right from a young age, you can manage this to some extent, create boundaries, and shape some behaviors more. However, many don't know how to or don't know to do that. Nor do they realize that yeah, it might be cute when your puppy "protects you" but think about when that puppy becomes massive, bolder, and poorly managed.

While the dogs are the problem in simple terms, it always comes back to people being ignorant and/or idiotic, IMO.

It always amuses me slightly the things that various societies have banned or consider banning. We're f*cking idiots highly complex organisms but we cannot hold a knife without being tempted to injure or kill someone. We know x product is bad for us, but consume it anyway and become unhealthy and/or die. So we have to have x product or the knife taken away because we cannot modify our behavior or override whatever monkey brain impulses we have.

The XL Bully is a problem, don't get me wrong, but sometimes it distracts people from realizing that we are the bl**dy problem. However, when you live in a society that doesn't exactly promote taking responsibility for your actions, well, insert surprised Pikachu face here.

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

By no means an easy job, but an important one. The thought of these dogs being abandoned or warehoused in kennels for years is more distressing to me than them being humanely euthanised.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

By no means an easy job, but an important one. The thought of these dogs being abandoned or warehoused in kennels for years is more distressing to me than them being humanely euthanised.

Absolutely.

Like I said before, a bullet to brain would be kinder.

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

On the responsibility thing... a random rescue popping up in my FB feed advertising an XL bitch of unknown age (under 2 years) and unknown background (stray) as suitable to home with older children. Also sharing things like 'it's not the breed' type stuff on their pages. Exactly! It's things like a rescue taking a dog of this type with absolutely no known history and saying 'yup there's a family dog' as if absolutely nothing has been learned from the multitude of in-public and at-home serious incidents. Let the face meet the palm!

 

[conniegirl]

Appeal after Doncaster boy, 5, injured by three dogs

The boy was left with puncture wounds to his body after the attack in Doncaster earlier this month.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[gunnergundog]

XL Bully shot dead at primary school after attack saw woman 'screaming for help'

The victim, in her 60s, was attacked by her own pet which was shot dead in a primary school car park. She is now recovering in hospital from non-life threatening injuries

www.mirror.co.uk

Rehomed by the Dogs Trust Snetterton a month ago; Monday it turned on the new owner and ended up being shot by the police.

 

[AmyMay]

XL Bully shot dead at primary school after attack saw woman 'screaming for help'

The victim, in her 60s, was attacked by her own pet which was shot dead in a primary school car park. She is now recovering in hospital from non-life threatening injuries

www.mirror.co.uk

Rehomed by the Dogs Trust Snetterton a month ago; Monday it turned on the new owner and ended up being shot by the police.

Posted about 4 times now…

 

[gunnergundog]

Posted about 4 times now…

Oops! Pardon me! Only just made it via Pigeon Post to my radar!

 

[splashgirl45]

I just looked on preloved and people are still advertising XL bullies both puppies and adults , one of them is a 12 month old bully dog, not neutered , good with children as lives with 6 , need to rehome as she is pregnant, her youngest is 15 months!!! Why would you get one of these dogs when you have 6 children and one of them would have only been 3 months old. It’s scarey

 

[Chucho]

I'm honestly surprised that rescues are prepared to take a risk on rehoming these dogs, particularly now there is the potential for a ban. We fostered a dog that developed a bite history, not with us but each time the rescue tried to place him in a permanent home he couldn't cope. First time it happened was a complete shock to all of us as he had been an absolute delight in kennels and with us in our home. Take anywhere, do anything kind of dog. He came back to us until we couldn't have him any more - we were moving abroad - and the rescue's view was that it was better to have been a chicken than an egg, he'd had an amazing time living with us but he was not safe to rehome anywhere else. He was PTS about 6 months after we left, having been happy as larry in kennels again in between (he liked the routine and predictability). The laws about liability for dogs biting strangers in the home had just changed and the rescue didn't feel they could take that liability on, put potential owners at risk, or risk the reputational damage that would follow. Rehoming XLBs seems to be generically risky to me, I wonder what additional risk assessments/tests rescues are doing before placing them. If they aren't, they should be.

ETA not just additional temperament testing, but extra follow up support after rehoming. Those first few months are such a vulnerable time as dogs settle into their new surroundings and get the measure of their new home.

 

[AdorableAlice]

I just looked on preloved and people are still advertising XL bullies both puppies and adults , one of them is a 12 month old bully dog, not neutered , good with children as lives with 6 , need to rehome as she is pregnant, her youngest is 15 months!!! Why would you get one of these dogs when you have 6 children and one of them would have only been 3 months old. It’s scarey

The government needs to stop all advertising of the breed on all the platforms, preloved, pets4homes, gumtree etc etc. They also need to undertake an intelligence led exercise using the advertising platforms to identify the breeders and enforce neutering. Less breeding will result in less dogs for sale. Pets4homes did make a start on legislating the sale of puppies and breeding of dogs by asking for licence numbers, but they still allow unlicensed breeders to advertise. What is pleasing now though, is licensed breeders who continue to advertise after their licence has expired are being blocked by Pets4homes, but they simply toddle off and advertise elsewhere.

Cut the ability to advertise and you are on your way to taking numbers down. LA's are working together to identify breeders prior to the legislation being passed. I assume enforcement is going to fall onto already overstretched LA's.

 

[SilverLinings]

The government needs to stop all advertising of the breed on all the platforms, preloved, pets4homes, gumtree etc etc. They also need to undertake an intelligence led exercise using the advertising platforms to identify the breeders and enforce neutering. Less breeding will result in less dogs for sale. Pets4homes did make a start on legislating the sale of puppies and breeding of dogs by asking for licence numbers, but they still allow unlicensed breeders to advertise. What is pleasing now though, is licensed breeders who continue to advertise after their licence has expired are being blocked by Pets4homes, but they simply toddle off and advertise elsewhere.

Cut the ability to advertise and you are on your way to taking numbers down. LA's are working together to identify breeders prior to the legislation being passed. I assume enforcement is going to fall onto already overstretched LA's.

Worryingly I don't think a large number of the general public even realise breeders licenses are a thing, they just think if you can own a dog/bitch you can just crack on and breed from it if you wish. I also don't think there is much awareness of health testing amongst the inexperienced buyers of family pet dogs either, which is another thing that doesn't encourage them to use responsible breeders, especially as the non-testing (and unlicensed) breeders are usually cheaper and have no/a shorter waiting list for a puppy.

 

[Cinnamontoast]

I donate to Dogs Trust by direct debit and am seriously thinking of cancelling it
And no I won't redirect my money to the RSPCA!

eta again it comes back to how you define a healthy dog
I don't think a companion animal with an uncertain temperament and the ability to inflict severe injury or death can ever be considered healthy

Given our lack of kids, my OH and I had decided to donate the majority of our estate to the Dogs Trust. I am rapidly going off that idea.

 

[Caol Ila]

Here's a very unpopular opinion. I expect to get flamed.

There seems to be a lot of handwringing over what to do with abandoned XL bullies because no one wants to euthanise them. Is it because it's a dog? Thousands of sheep, cows, chickens, and pigs get slaughtered every day, and no one bats an eye. And sometimes, there has to be a large cull of whole herds for public health reasons like mad cow disease or bovine TB, which is awful for the animals and the farmers, but people still just get on with it for the greater good.

Cull the damn things, I say. They seem to pose a public health risk, more than any other dog, and why should they get more consideration than a beef cow?

 

[conniegirl]

Thousands of sheep, cows, chickens, and pigs get slaughtered every day, and no one bats an eye.

Have you seen the rate of drug/alcohol addiction amongst slaughter men? Or the suicide rate?

 

[Cortez]

Have you seen the rate of drug/alcohol addiction amongst slaughter men? Or the suicide rate?

No, but I do know several who work in the slaughter house in our small town, and the vets who do meat inspection there. It's not a pleasant job, but someone has to do it and the guys I know do a good, clean job. One of them is a medical doctor from Russia whose qualifications are not recognised here.

 

[conniegirl]

No, but I do know several who work in the slaughter house in our small town, and the vets who do meat inspection there. It's not a pleasant job, but someone has to do it and the guys I know do a good, clean job. One of them is a medical doctor from Russia whose qualifications are not recognised here.

I worked in an abattoir for a while and as you say, not a pleasant job. Yes the guys i knew did a good clean job but it was well known that the job takes as large toll on the slaughter-men and the company had procedures and specialist support in place for their men doing the deed.
The job has an extremely high incidence of drug/drink dependence and unfortunately suicide.

 

[cauda equina]

The widespread closure of small abbatoirs has probably worsened the problems for slaughtermen
When I was a child my mum took lambs to a small abbatoir nearby run by a local butcher which mostly supplied his own shop but slaughtered animals for customers' own use too
Mum always said the guys there were kind. You don't hear the same from the massive, industrial style abbatoirs

 

[skinnydipper]

...

 

[ycbm]

Here's a very unpopular opinion. I expect to get flamed.

There seems to be a lot of handwringing over what to do with abandoned XL bullies because no one wants to euthanise them. Is it because it's a dog? Thousands of sheep, cows, chickens, and pigs get slaughtered every day, and no one bats an eye. And sometimes, there has to be a large cull of whole herds for public health reasons like mad cow disease or bovine TB, which is awful for the animals and the farmers, but people still just get on with it for the greater good.

Cull the damn things, I say. They seem to pose a public health risk, more than any other dog, and why should they get more consideration than a beef cow?

Your point is completely well founded CI. I know you aren't talking about abattoir workers, though that's what people have picked up on while ignoring the point you actually made.

You are right, the overwhelming majority of people who will demand we can't cull a dangerous breed of dog will eat farmed meat. It's hypocrisy.
.

 

[Cortez]

I worked in an abattoir for a while and as you say, not a pleasant job. Yes the guys i knew did a good clean job but it was well known that the job takes as large toll on the slaughter-men and the company had procedures and specialist support in place for their men doing the deed.
The job has an extremely high incidence of drug/drink dependence and unfortunately suicide.

So do vets, and combat soldiers. But again, somebody has to do it.