Competing at a lower level to 'warm up' - rant!

[ester]

Whoa there! You forgot cheesy chips, always cheesy chips!

I thought that went without saying, sorry!

 

[Red-1]

IMO, as long as someone is eligible for a class then they can compete for me.

I do find it a bit ironic that some people are accusing good riders on well trained horses of "Pot Hunting" when their argument is that if the good people on well trained horses were not there then they could win a rosette! Eh? IMO the good people did not detract for the warm up or the test, did not interfere with the day right up until the allocation of prizes was an issue.

When I compete I ask if I am eligible, then enter what class I want. With young or daft horses I have done an intro. I have also done a lower class if I was quite capable of a higher one, but need to work in the afternoon so I need to be done and dusted and home early. Conversely I have done a higher class if I am working in the morning and can't get to the venue until late.

I actually think it would be a bit haughty if I were to need to leave early and so enter a lower class, that I am fully eligible for, and then tell the organiser that I wish to be HC to give the other people chance as I think I am better than them. I can only imagine if I entered with that attitude then Jay would have a laugh and jump out of the arena or something.

Jay usually does quite well in whatever class, but the scores seem similar in whatever we enter. He does better with a more difficult test that he has to think about, but there again a more polished performance is expected so it seems to level out. What is quite funny is that at whatever level we are at I look at the other horses and riders and think how posh they all look, and wonder if we look like the poor relations, then when the results come out often we are in the top 3.

I do think that a lot more riders would be a lot happier and less nerve struck if they paid less attention to the other competitors and just concentrated on what was going on between themselves and their horses. When I go in the ring my primary intention is not to be as perfect as possible, but to make the test experience as nice for Jay as I can. I have shared this primary intent with others, and they have been enjoying the experience a lot more.

It is unusual for Jay not to be placed, but somehow I am always surprised. I would be a bit disappointed if other competitors were griping behind my back. We all pay our money, we all have different hopes and aspirations, different life circumstances, and it would be impossible to try to second guess the intentions of other competitors. Most of our local competitions do not have prize money, and the rosette just gets put in a bookcase on a pile, so it is not pot hunting for me. For my motivation is for a good day. That may mean entering a lower test if I have had a stressy week, or if Jay is not on form, or if I need to be away early.

 

[JoJo_]

I am going to comment from an organiser of BD and unaffiliated (riding club) dressage events. We have a warm up class for every level so for example there is a warmup prelim before the qualifier (affiliated) or league (riding club) prelim. Most people do compete in two classes when they enter our competitions. Sometimes they will enter the prelim qualifier and novice warmup to have a go at the next level up.

We have stopped doing affiliated Intros as nobody entered them but unaffiliated and riding club side we have big entries for intro. We have a rule in place for the warmup class that if the RIDER has been placed 1st-3rd in prelim or above on 3 or more occasions then they must compete HC. This allows the newcomers to dressage to go home with rosettes. This rule doesnt apply to the league class though so a more experienced RC member can still win an intro league but there are rules in place to encourage people to move up to the next level if they win the league.

Being in Aberdeenshire we dont have vast numbers of affiliated entries so I cant say we see people regularly competing at lower levels just to win. The rule prize money and needing 5 or more in the class has been great as we used to regularly be giving out prize money when there was only one or two in the class.

Unaffiliated we have masses of entries and I have to say that the majority do want to move up the levels when they are ready but of course there is the odd one who compete at a lower level to score a win. These are few and far between though.

 

[ljohnsonsj]

If i'm going to a show with hopes of jumping a 1.20 i will always do the 1.10 or 1.15 open, that applies for anything i jump unless its a young horse then probably only one class or one class and a clear round. I suppose i could get accused of pot hunting as i have a 'diesel horse' who is consistant, but not the most talented jumper,she would never do the bigger classes but is quick around 1m and 1.05s and very quick- I'm eligable and i can get a pole like everyone else so its everyones game

 

[cptrayes]

Interesting thread this. How would people define a pot hunter? For me, it would be anyone who enters any class competitively when they have already had more than one win two levels above that class or are consistently topping one level above that class.

I would exclude, hopefully obviously, anyone dropping levels for specific training purposes.

I'm not saying they shouldn't do it if the rules allow. I'm saying that I can't imagine what possible satisfaction it gives them to do it.

 

[khalswitz]

Actually most Intro tests are so ghastly to attempt on a wobbly youngster i dont know why people think they should start babies there-
10m 1/2 circles on a 17.2hh 4yo- great fun!

Equally first comps are not fun or thrilling- they are horrid nerve wracking events that we wonder why we do it, until we get off and its all over!

However as it always comes down to- if their eligible they can enter- dont like it train to beat them!

This. Intro is at a higher standard of trot work than the first half of the prelim tests - you don't see half tens again til Novice. Horrific things for young horses!!

I did Intros with my current horse, but tbh mainly because we were both inexperienced - I'd never done dressage before and he was off the track. But I look back and in fact he scored better and was happier at prelim as it was asking less, despite the canter being crap.

i dont want to de-rail the thread so this will be my final thoughts (and they are only that MY thoughts and you can disagree or agree, but its not going to change my mind one iota..)

its a sliding scale of *why are you doing this*-if it cant canter a 20 x 20 m circle in an arena, in front of 1 judge then to me personally that kind of screams lack of prep..... the first time a horse goes off site should be to hire a diff arena away from home, when presumably you would take advantage of a schooling situation and thus canter? and you should do that until the horse is relaxed..............and if you can do that, then really, going and doing a prelim isnt too different?

as far as the warm up goes, i find intro/prelim/novice far more terrifying (especially given HOW many people seem not to do the above prep and are thus presumably careering round on equally terrified horses!) than warming up with higher levels, who at least can canter/halt or collect and shorten a few steps to manoeuvre out the way.

totally get that every horse is not being produced with GP in mind but to my mind warm up arena control is a safety issue and you cant just take the tack that "oh im not doing it seriously so it doesnt matter" because if your nervous horse, at its very first adventure off the yard, explodes,careers off barely able to stay upright in canter, with its terrified rider screaming and collides with another horse, the rider of that horse will be taking it VERY seriously and might not be too impressed............

preparation is key............ive had some absolute knob-heads in the past, but never caused an accident because the horse was sufficiently prepped as to be manoeuvrable and thus i could stay out the way...........i personally just feel intro tests encourage people out in to public before they are really ready.

also, i can bet you any money that whilst i can brazen it out, i WILL feel that twinge of fear at Goof's first show. But i will have done all the prep and put every building block in place to make it as safe and as easy as possible. If you really are SO nervous of cantering at a show, then perhaps come rider confidence building is needed too.

and before anyone even says it-para riders and small kids are totally diff kettle of fish, kids cant rationalise in the same way adults can and very tiny tots probably lack the upper body strength to canter anyway.

I totally agree. Pony Club D tests are walk and trot, which is perfect for little kids who actually can't canter but still want to have fun and compete. But these kids won't be going to Interbranch... Intro tests are actually harder than PC w/t tests, and basically very badly designed... And encourage people who are afraid to canter (which surely can be the only reason for not attempting p4 which is literally cantering around the arena) to enter into a stressful warm up environment without being prepared to push their horses forward.


Regarding the initial point about pot hunting - the people who win the classes generally are more experienced at that level. Even in Intro, it isn't often you go to your very first show and win. People stay at a level until they are confident and the combo ready to move up. When moving up, you don't just jump in - you compete at both for a start (BD has a 14 point rule at the level above which for us would be about three normal tests which is fair!), to get experience. So it could easily be a warm up for te level above, without it being pot hunting.

Many horses I see at BD in prelim are easily schooling Novice at home and in the warm up, and are pulling out very good performances. Same at Novice - the ones who win are working away happily at Elem. So tbh I don't really agree with the OP... There are eligibility rules that obviously have to be followed, but otherwise, if you get beat, get inspired!!

 

[Art Nouveau]

Whoa there! You forgot cheesy chips, always cheesy chips!

Nooo, chips and gravy! Proper thick northern gravy.

 

[Pigeon]

Definitely agree, take it as motivation!! I does annoy me when people enter classes competitively that they shouldn't be in, but dressage is about personal improvement, right? Ignore them and decide if you are happy with your day, regardless of if you placed.

I sometimes do classes as warmups because Pippy is weird about places he doesn't know, but I enter HC! Especially as I know he won't place, unless the judge has a penchant for horses with their eyes bulging out their head

 

[coffeeandabagel]

What makes me sad is adults on nippy ponies winning 60 and 70 cm classes at local shows - give the poor kids a chance! I have a "friend" on facbook who throughout the summer proudly posts pics of her pony dripping in rosettes from these classes as well as 80 and 90 classes other weeks. Sad.

I will enter Intro and Prelim on my mare - we can walk, trot and we can canter (just - but she is gawky) , but we are rubbish at the canter transition at the moment so the Intro is our level but we enter a level above because its so time consuming and expensive to travel 20 miles for one test. I like the adrenaline buzz of competing even if we arent competitive and she gets two looks at the boards and the judge.

 

[Pigeon]

I don't think people enter intro just because there's no canter. I think it's because the judge is more likely to be not too harsh, and you can ride the horse in a bit more of a relaxed outline. Just a thought

 

[khalswitz]

Actually most Intro tests are so ghastly to attempt on a wobbly youngster i dont know why people think they should start babies there-
10m 1/2 circles on a 17.2hh 4yo- great fun!

Equally first comps are not fun or thrilling- they are horrid nerve wracking events that we wonder why we do it, until we get off and its all over!

However as it always comes down to- if their eligible they can enter- dont like it train to beat them!

I don't think people enter intro just because there's no canter. I think it's because the judge is more likely to be not too harsh, and you can ride the horse in a bit more of a relaxed outline. Just a thought

But they don't. The judge is looking for exactly the same as a prelim test. There just isn't any canter. The judge is more likely to be more lenient because it is unaff rather than because it is intro.

 

[spookypony]

Being in Aberdeenshire we dont have vast numbers of affiliated entries so I cant say we see people regularly competing at lower levels just to win. The rule prize money and needing 5 or more in the class has been great as we used to regularly be giving out prize money when there was only one or two in the class.

Totally know what you mean about Aberdeenshire! If you are desperate for rosettes, you're better off getting to Elementary and beyond as fast as possible.

This. Intro is at a higher standard of trot work than the first half of the prelim tests - you don't see half tens again til Novice. Horrific things for young horses!!

Ah, the advantages of small horses! I think one reason the SP did better at Novice is that the greater the number of curlicues in the test, the less opportunity for him to get wobbly on straight lines. The smaller shapes themselves, he found easy (and the Ballerina Mare isn't much longer than he is).

And encourage people who are afraid to canter (which surely can be the only reason for not attempting p4 which is literally cantering around the arena) to enter into a stressful warm up environment without being prepared to push their horses forward.

I hate P4. Haven't ridden it in quite a while, but I was always wondering if I'd missed out something somewhere, because nothing happens (other than loads of straight lines to get wobbly on).

 

[khalswitz]

Totally know what you mean about Aberdeenshire! If you are desperate for rosettes, you're better off getting to Elementary and beyond as fast as possible.



Ah, the advantages of small horses! I think one reason the SP did better at Novice is that the greater the number of curlicues in the test, the less opportunity for him to get wobbly on straight lines. The smaller shapes themselves, he found easy (and the Ballerina Mare isn't much longer than he is).



I hate P4. Haven't ridden it in quite a while, but I was always wondering if I'd missed out something somewhere, because nothing happens (other than loads of straight lines to get wobbly on).

Geoff isn't particularly long, but he is a big lad with a big stride and is not the most laterally flexible... We found it so hard!! I'll be honest, next horse won't bother with Intro - straight in for easy prelims. I know what you mean about Novice - Geoff is ACE at straight lines (8/8.5 for CLs every time!) but he just isn't that bendy yet, and there isn't enough chance to show off straightness at N compared to P!!!

 

[RachelFerd]

Afraid I'm with PS on this one. Really don't see the purpose to intro tests - there are lots of ways in which you can go out to parties without having to compete - you can introduce your horse to all the necessary things before going out to compete. There are a million and one training clinics, group training clinics, dressage test practice days out there... why compete before you feel confident that the horse can complete basic movements?

.... However! What REALLY gets on my nerves is perpetual-prelim-itis!! Why do SO many people stick at prelim level, forever, and ever, and ever, and ever, and ever? If you are established at prelim, it's not hard to move up to novice - so why do so few people do it? It's not like jumping where you may understandably be nervous of bigger fences and knocking your horses confidence. It means that those that do move up to novice (unaffiliated) end up in stupidly uncompetitive classes where there are only 2 or 3 entrants, yet there will have been 20 in the prelim prior. I really don't understand....

Although if someone could arrange some new tests without any walk movements, I too would be happy!

 

[brighthair]

I did an intro for my first few tests because I was a petrified rider who wasn't happy to canter. It wasn't that I was happily cantering at home, I wasn't
I guess when I get out next year people may see me as pot hunting (they have done before), because I was doing an intro test on a horse that's been out at medium. I will be out at novice or elementary when I next compete
But I see it as she was at medium with another rider not me, and she isn't a horse you can sit on and not ride, can be pretty tricky at times!

 

[PolarSkye]

Actually I think its quite offensive to suggest those of us who arent all that bothered about ribbons 'dont make the same amount of preparation...' Winning is the icing on the cake for good preparation and a good performance. Its certainly very lovely to go out and and win/be highly placed or whatever but its not the be and end all of why people compete.

I agree with this . . . I wouldn't go so far as to say that we didn't care about placing or rosettes, more that in the very early days it simply wasn't a reasonable expectation so we focussed much more on progressing in relation to previous tests. Dressage tests are, after all, a way of demonstrating understanding and implementation of the scales of training in a formal, structured way. I was much happier when we received our first test sheet that didn't have the word "tense" on it than I was when he won both his classes at OEC. His last test before he went lame was the best, most consistent he had done to date - but the marks didn't reflect that (as in, it wasn't his best score) and he didn't place . . . I was over the moon with them both, though.

P

P.S. And, yes, cheesy chips are a must

 

[cptrayes]

Afraid I'm with PS on this one. Really don't see the purpose to intro tests - there are lots of ways in which you can go out to parties without having to compete - you can introduce your horse to all the necessary things before going out to compete. There are a million and one training clinics, group training clinics, dressage test practice days out there... why compete before you feel confident that the horse canU complete basic movements?

....

Because not all horses and/or riders behave the same in a genuine test environment.

Because some of us have babies that aren't ready to canter in a test, and no other horse to ride, but we would still like the day out and think it will be educational for the horse.

 

[BuzzLightyear]

venturing into the lions den....

as a person with a 5 yr old 'hairy native pony'I, for one, am glad that intros exist. Natives dont mature as fast as WB types and, although we can canter just fine, our tranisition in and out can be best described as wayward an can stress him out if it goes wrong- so we leave the canter work at home and have been out learning the ropes at Intro.

Yes, we are often up against prelim competitors using it as a warm up but I'm not there to worry about them, just to try and improve on our scores each and every time out. I try to go to venues which run multiple tests as he goes better in the second test once he's been in and seen the arena and car of doom! We've done 3 comps this year and scored 67, 69 and 73% respectively against decent competition - often beating prelim combinations.

My boy is never going to be a world beater as he doesnt have the reach of longer limbs TB/ WB types, but he is being produced slowly and correctly. The intro is only a means to an end for us, teaching him practical skills in a real life environment so that we can start next year with a couple of unafil prelims before affiliating.We wouldnt get that in a clinic environment or in an arena hire.

 

[eahotson]

As far as I am aware walk trot tests were introduced primarily to give novice riders often with novice horses a chance to dip their toe in the water with minimal stress.Hopefully they will then get the bug! Some may just want to do the occasional one at club level and have fun! That's what its all about so if you are winning/competing at a higher level do I think you are being unfair competing competitively in intros? Yes I do. You can always enter non comp to give the young horse etc. a warm up.

 

[Wishful]

Done quite a lot of unaff and BE riding. The number of riders who seem to forget to breathe once the bell has gone is staggering. Add the nervous not breathing in canter and some would be fainting!

Intro for me is a rider schooling test as much as anything. The rider learns to breathe in a 'competition' environment without the pressure of cantering.

Have only done unaff on riding school ponies myself but didn't find competing per se worrying, used to compete internationally at fencing so competing isn't scary. Jumping on the other hand I have to consciously remember to breathe. But I did get nervous at my first big fencing competitions so got it out of the way then.

Some people freeze in exams, some find being judged scary, some thrive on the adrenaline of performing. We're all different, so it's good to have different routes into competing.

 

[eahotson]

Further more.To those who say improve well, a lot of people have horses.Keep them on an a modest budget and have to juggle time with family, full time work etc.They have a horse, very modest competitive ambitions and just want a bit of fun.This is not a crime.I wish more clubs would run a walk trot championship league restricted to people who have never competed above prelim level and have never won a first at prelim or above.

 

[Palindrome]

1. Enter at A and wiggle down the centre line.

2. Halt at G with bum squished out to one side.

3. Move off as if stung by a bee, stop and stare in amazement at the judge's hair color, turn right.

4. decide that you don't want to track left at C

5. crab round the corner and set off fly leaping at H (that is where there accuracy comes in!!!)

6. pick up perfectly at K and carry on as if nothing happened

7. Working canter at A and complete 20 metre-ish egg shaped pattern

8. include large buck when passing X

9. KX walk across diagonal on a long rein

10. XM still in walk proceed to raise horses head as if imitating a giraffe staring at something no-one else can even see in the distance, extra points for snorting

11 MA sideways crab movement in trot still doing impression of giraffe


Adding my bit...

12. K Canter very close to the rail

13. between E and H rider to hit the rail with their foot, horse explodes bucking, riders fall off

(yes, we did that at our first test )

 

[HorsesandParrots]

I did my first into test this year, and won with 73% and then into b with 69%. I was actually confronted by some people in the warm up who weren't happy that I was in intro not prelim.
I had to explain myself. But why should I?
it was both my first ever test, and my 6 year old rescues, and I had no idea how she would react.
I had to explain that she is completely unbalanced in canter and too tense.
now I know how she will behave I will aim for preliminary with her.
I also had no idea of what marks she would get and was over the moon with her!!

She's still not ready for preliminary but getting there. I don't think I'd have any issue with someone using it as a warm up for their preliminary test... as I think that's what I'd do to try and relax my own!

 

[eahotson]

1. Enter at A and wiggle down the centre line.

2. Halt at G with bum squished out to one side.

3. Move off as if stung by a bee, stop and stare in amazement at the judge's hair color, turn right.

4. decide that you don't want to track left at C

5. crab round the corner and set off fly leaping at H (that is where there accuracy comes in!!!)

6. pick up perfectly at K and carry on as if nothing happened

7. Working canter at A and complete 20 metre-ish egg shaped pattern

8. include large buck when passing X

9. KX walk across diagonal on a long rein

10. XM still in walk proceed to raise horses head as if imitating a giraffe staring at something no-one else can even see in the distance, extra points for snorting

11 MA sideways crab movement in trot still doing impression of giraffe


Adding my bit...

12. K Canter very close to the rail

13. between E and H rider to hit the rail with their foot, horse explodes bucking, riders fall off

(yes, we did that at our first test )

Well at least you completed the test and probably livened up the judges day!!!!!!

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

Further more.To those who say improve well, a lot of people have horses.Keep them on an a modest budget and have to juggle time with family, full time work etc.They have a horse, very modest competitive ambitions and just want a bit of fun.This is not a crime.I wish more clubs would run a walk trot championship league restricted to people who have never competed above prelim level and have never won a first at prelim or above.

yes of course, lets just make up more classes, ever easier, so that every class only has one entry and everyones a winner!!!!!!!!!

if you do it for fun you dont mind not being placed and if you do it very seriously then you will have to train a bit more seriously!

any flipping horse is capable of canter, even if you can only school it once a week it can learn to canter in a prelim acceptable way.................plenty of people on very modest budgets with no facilities and families do very very well because instead of sitting around moaning on the internet they get the hell out there and work at it, 4am, 10pm, if thats the only time they can ride, they do it, day in day out to improve.

 

[cptrayes]

yes of course, lets just make up more classes, ever easier, so that every class only has one entry and everyones a winner!!!!!!!!!

if you do it for fun you dont mind not being placed and if you do it very seriously then you will have to train a bit more seriously!

any flipping horse is capable of canter, even if you can only school it once a week it can learn to canter in a prelim acceptable way.................plenty of people on very modest budgets with no facilities and families do very very well because instead of sitting around moaning on the internet they get the hell out there and work at it, 4am, 10pm, if thats the only time they can ride, they do it, day in day out to improve.

I rode an Intro on a horse last year who had been backed four months earlier and did not reliably give me a correct canter lead. Being young and immature I was not prepared to drill him until he got it right, I waited for him to mature. I wanted a day out with him, for experience, last year, and I went and had a real fun time with him and my OH, and a great cappuccino.

Why, oh why, do you begrudge me, or anyone else this as a first experience of a show environment?

http://youtu.be/DWhl7yAST5A

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

my response was not aimed at you CPT, stop turning this in to the CPT show.

it was in response to the suggestion that we should run MORE championships especially for people who have a long list of *cant do's*.

if you had a good day out and didnt moan you didnt win, i couldnt give a stuff what you did and i dont begrudge you your day out tootling around because it doesnt affect me one iota as i hope never to be at the same show as you (for various reasons).

but my opinion remains that intro's do nothing to encourage people to up their game or raise their standards.

 

[cptrayes]

PS. He did the warm up perfectly and wore L plates until just before the bell rang. The video aspect ratio is wrong, he is not that short backed

 

[cptrayes]

my response was not aimed at you CPT, stop turning this in to the CPT show.

it was in response to the suggestion that we should run MORE championships especially for people who have a long list of *cant do's*.

if you had a good day out and didnt moan you didnt win, i couldnt give a stuff what you did and i dont begrudge you your day out tootling around because it doesnt affect me one iota as i hope never to be at the same show as you (for various reasons).

but my opinion remains that intro's do nothing to encourage people to up their game or raise their standards.

But it is aimed at me, as one of many Intro riders, and I can only reply to you from my own experience of an occasion when a horse who could not do a Prelim canter was taken to do an Intro. Directly relevant to your post when you said any horse can do a Prelim canter.

I think you've lost track of what the majority of riders want out of life. And your posts really do read to me as if you want to stop the rest of us from just having a bit of fun or who think that an Intro is of benefit to some novice horses and riders.

 

[Nannon]

but my opinion remains that intro's do nothing to encourage people to up their game or raise their standards.

This!