Facebook footage of welsh stud delivering youngstock to abattoir

[Tiddlypom]

You are probably the reason why so many people do not put comments on here.

Which people won’t comment? I never get the argument that people are too scared to post in here. There’s nothing stopping people from posting, unless of course you break the forum terms like the poster who started a new thread just to identify the stud - she was actively encouraging the pitchfork brigade.

We understand that you are very upset about this. Those of us who have been in horses longer and have been involved with reputable rescue societies may have a more measured view.

Over breeding is a real problem, and it needs to be addressed, but this stud did secure the future of those unwanted weanlings. They did not end up like Gizmo.

You are too late for those ponies, but if you have the means you could take on an equine from a rescue.

Here is one of my RSPCA fosters, aged 3 here. She had been found abandoned and starved in a bare winter field with a dead companion. An absolute cracker of a pony. It was a honour to have her here and to play a part in handling and caring for her, and preparing her to go on to a happy and useful life.

 

[rabatsa]

I never heard there was a minimum age for horses to be put down. Is there?

Having read down pages and pages of regulations the only thing that jumped out was that animals UNDER 7 DAYS may not enter the food chain.

 

[Ownedby4horses]

I hate the thought that animals killed and that’s why I’m a vegetarian.
However, I am logical in that I understand how the world works, animals are bred for food.
In this instance (and one I suspect will face many studs), we are in the midst of a pandemic and people are running out of money and the horse market is very likely to be flooded with unwanted equines now the winter is hitting. The stud have been responsible in not allowing these ponies to be added to the welfare situation and I have to respect that they obviously had their reasons for taking them to where they did, rather than having them put to sleep at home.
I do not think a witch hunt and trial by social media is fair.

 

[Roasted Chestnuts]

You and people like you must like to feel superior ......and DON'T assume anything about me or put me into the pink fluff brigade. You are insulting and so rude. You are probably the reason why so many people do not put comments on here. Did I say they were accountable to others...NO, Did I say it was ok to have trial by social media...NO. So get off your high horse. Friendly forum my ass

You certainly have a bee in your bonnet. People can disagree you know without it being a personal slur or the end of the world ??‍

well that ship has sailed but their responsibility is to look after them and not take the easy route for their own f*** up. IMO there is no excuse for breeding and then not ensuring the animals future. In this country we go on and on about indiscriminate breeding but yet the supposed ‘breeders’ are just as bad in a different disguise.

There’s also a lot of assuming on this breeder that they can’t keep them or sell them etc. All the post said was they over bred (another concept I don’t understand, urm don’t breed so many in the first place, can’t imagine Welsh A are in high demand regardless of COVID).
It may be the breeder just didn’t want to fork out to keep them over winter, which to me is indiscriminate.
Hopefully they learn from this and haven’t done the same this year for next years foals.

They did ensure the animals future so I don’t get why you are so upset? These ponies won’t suffer, they won’t be passed from pillar to post and won’t end up in the welfare system? If they had gone in a potters lorry from the sales or had been bolted on the yard they wouldn’t be any less assured of their fate.

Responsible breeding does have a dark side and that culling those that don’t make the grade. Happens a lot in other countries. It’s not all fields full of happy ponies, nobody is saying perhaps the breeding doesn’t need looked at but you have to be pragmatic and realise that not all horses and ponies get a home.

 

[Roasted Chestnuts]

You and people like you must like to feel superior ......and DON'T assume anything about me or put me into the pink fluff brigade. You are insulting and so rude. You are probably the reason why so many people do not put comments on here. Did I say they were accountable to others...NO, Did I say it was ok to have trial by social media...NO. So get off your high horse. Friendly forum my ass

You certainly have a bee in your bonnet don’t you? People can disagree without it being an insult or personal slur, I think it’s you that needs to come off your high horse ??‍

 

[tristar]

No-one here knows the actual facts so we can all speculate as much as we like but the situation is we don't know. The stud could have issued a statement .....and yes I know it is none of my or anyone's business blah blah, but it may have cleared up all the speculation. I hate the way some comments on here assume the people that are angry/upset etc are a kind of pitchfork brigade and want blood. I am a pensioner horse owner and yes I was very disturbed by the slaughter of these foals but I belong to no lynch mob. I am not going to apologise for looking at the world through rose coloured spectacles......it's the only way to see past all the cruelty/inhumanity/suffering in this world. Not being a horse owner all my life I never realised what is regarded as 'common practice' like the culling of otherwise healthy horses in large numbers. Horses were never the problem, WE are the problem. This is my opinion before someone slates me for being ignorant/naive.

well said and expressed thank you

i have a pair of those specs , i put them on and go to my animals and enjoy our own bubble in this , as the song goes `a world made of steel, made of stone`` can naff off

 

[Cortez]

As you may have noted I am firmly on the "better dead than neglected" side of this discussion. I have formed this opinion after many years of being involved first hand with breeding horses and animal welfare and rescue. Looking around my farm this morning I realised that there are only 4 animals here (out of nearly 20) that aren't rescues, some of them from truly appalling conditions. If people are getting so upset at the humane slaughter of three unwanted colts, just wait til they find out about what happens to dairy bull calves, male chicks in egg production hatcheries, slow greyhounds and thoroughbreds, barren sows, runt pedigree puppies, etc., etc.

And before someone says they could all be rescued to "loving" homes; some of the most harrowing rescues I've ever been involved in have involved animal lovers that got animals to "rescue them from death" and then proceeded to treat them horrifically due to either ignorance or pure laziness, or both. I once said to one of these self-described "saviours" - it'd be better if she loved them less and fed/wormed/medicated them more.

If there is no-one to look after a domesticated animal, what do people propose to do with them? I have asked this question several times here; no answers yet.

 

[Equine_Dream]

Well, a few things here. You "believe" but were they infact less than 6 months of age? And if so, is it legally relevant?



I sort of thought about this a bit. I could not drive healthy (if they were) colts to slaughter. I'd really have to be in a bad situation financially (or I guess even mentally?) to do so.

It may not be illegal to shoot horses less than 6 months old but pulling them off their mothers before 6 months purely for them to be slaughtered...... I don't know about you but that wouldn't sit well with me morally.

 

[milliepops]

And before someone says they could all be rescued to "loving" homes; some of the most harrowing rescues I've ever been involved in have involved animal lovers that got animals to "rescue them from death" and then proceeded to treat them horrifically due to either ignorance or pure laziness, or both. I once said to one of these self-described "saviours" - it'd be better if she loved them less and fed/wormed/medicated them more.

I have one of these, though fortunately for her she had a safety net but in some ways it's even worse that it nearly failed - a horse was loaned out from a charity, to people who already had one charity horse and appeared to be good horse people... but had to be seized back with intervention from the police as things turned nasty, because they had neglected her. luckily this was picked up because they left a string of unpaid livery bills and someone eventually alerted the charity. Horse lovers, taking in a rescue... if it had been one bought off the "meat man" or whatever, then no one would have been able to step in.

Despite having my own little herd of freebie/rescue horses (so proof that there are happy endings sometimes), i am very skeptical about the kinds of people that sometimes respond to those free to a good home types, i think you have to be extremely careful if giving away a horse and make sure you get someone who is realistic and not a dreamer. and therefore pts one way or the other is the only guarantee that the horse won't end up on a downward spiral that ends in suffering.

 

[Cortez]

Despite having my own little herd of freebie/rescue horses (so proof that there are happy endings sometimes), i am very skeptical about the kinds of people that sometimes respond to those free to a good home types, i think you have to be extremely careful if giving away a horse and make sure you get someone who is realistic and not a dreamer. and therefore pts one way or the other is the only guarantee that the horse won't end up on a downward spiral that ends in suffering.

When I ran a stud farm I learned the hard way not to give free or token-payment horses to "good" homes, even those that seemed responsible and capable. I will never forgive myself for the suffering that I ultimately caused by trying to avoid having to do the right thing.

 

[tristar]

As you may have noted I am firmly on the "better dead than neglected" side of this discussion. I have formed this opinion after many years of being involved first hand with breeding horses and animal welfare and rescue. Looking around my farm this morning I realised that there are only 4 animals here (out of nearly 20) that aren't rescues, some of them from truly appalling conditions. If people are getting so upset at the humane slaughter of three unwanted colts, just wait til they find out about what happens to dairy bull calves, male chicks in egg production hatcheries, slow greyhounds and thoroughbreds, barren sows, runt pedigree puppies, etc., etc.

And before someone says they could all be rescued to "loving" homes; some of the most harrowing rescues I've ever been involved in have involved animal lovers that got animals to "rescue them from death" and then proceeded to treat them horrifically due to either ignorance or pure laziness, or both. I once said to one of these self-described "saviours" - it'd be better if she loved them less and fed/wormed/medicated them more.

If there is no-one to look after a domesticated animal, what do people propose to do with them? I have asked this question several times here; no answers yet.

to be honest in all fairness i am fully aware of all those other greyhounds calves pigs etc i have an all encompassing horrible picture in my head of it

 

[stormox]

It may not be illegal to shoot horses less than 6 months old but pulling them off their mothers before 6 months purely for them to be slaughtered...... I don't know about you but that wouldn't sit well with me morally.

They cant be left with their mothers indefinately, especially colts they will soon be trying to cover her - and are fertile at 9 months. Anyway she will probably probably have another in utero and she cant support 2 if she does

 

[Equine_Dream]

They cant be left with their mothers indefinately, especially colts they will soon be trying to cover her. Anyway she will probably probably have another in utero and she cant support 2 if she does

Mares are evolved to have a foal at foot and be pregnant at the same time. They are pregnant for 11 months so how else would they produce foals yearly?
No one said for them to remain with the mare indefinitely but weaning early just for them to be slaughtered. Not ok imo. Legal or not.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Do we even know if the weanlings were under 6 months old, or is that more supposition?

 

[Equine_Dream]

Do we even know if the weanlings were under 6 months old, or is that more supposition?

No we don't, but someone asked what the issue was legally if the foals were under 6 months, and I replied my opinion that while it may not be ILLEGAL that doesn't make it any less immoral. Last time I checked this is an open forum where people are free to comment opinions/views on a discussion yes?

 

[Tiddlypom]

No we don't, but someone asked what the issue was legally if the foals were under 6 months, and I replied my opinion that while it may not be ILLEGAL that doesn't make it any less immoral. Last time I checked this is an open forum where people are free to comment opinions/views on a discussion yes?

Not questioning your viewpoint.

I am questioning the validity of the oft repeated (on this thread) statements-presented-as-fact that:-

1. The weanlings were under 6 months old.
2. It is illegal to slaughter equines under 6 months old.

If anyone can reliably confirm that either points 1 or 2 are true, or not true, then please do so. I genuinely do not know either way.

 

[Cortez]

Mares are evolved to have a foal at foot and be pregnant at the same time. They are pregnant for 11 months so how else would they produce foals yearly?
No one said for them to remain with the mare indefinitely but weaning early just for them to be slaughtered. Not ok imo. Legal or not.

You seem to have very rigid ideas as to what other people are or are not allowed (by you) to do with their youngstock. While it is sort of an accepted norm to wean foals at around six months, foals can be weaned happily from around four months, and may have to be weaned earlier due to various circumstances. Leaving foals on for longer than six months tends to affect both mares and their offspring adversely and is often not practical. Most mares will start to wean their foals themselves from around 8 months, although some won't and I have seen 3 and 4 year olds still trying to suckle from their mothers.

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

TP.
1. No confirmation either way, would need to check studbook
2. Not illegal.

Many big studs with natives aim to have them on the ground late March to early May, depending on their facilities, foals of course can be dropped either side of then.
To add, most breed sales are on around now and all require foals to have been weaned prior to sale (usually about 3 weeks, breed society depending).
Foals to be entered in the sales must be fully registered prior to sale.

 

[Equine_Dream]

You seem to have very rigid ideas as to what other people are or are not allowed (by you) to do with their youngstock. While it is sort of an accepted norm to wean foals at around six months, foals can be weaned happily from around four months, and may have to be weaned earlier due to various circumstances. Leaving foals on for longer than six months tends to affect both mares and their offspring adversely and is often not practical. Most mares will start to wean their foals themselves from around 8 months, although some won't and I have seen 3 and 4 year olds still trying to suckle from their mothers.

I'm fully aware that foals may be weaned before 6 months for various reasons. Also yes you do need to intervene with some that seem to be prepared to let their "foals" suckle indefinately (a lady on our old yard had a mare and foal where at 2yo the "foal" would still go for a cheeky suckle).
Weaning is not always pleasant and obviously sometimes needs to be done earlier than 6 months, but I don't agree with it being done early for the convenience of slaughtering foals. Just my opinion for what its worth

 

[popcorn1]

I don't know what all the fuss is about. Sure it's sad to see such young lives brought to an end but the same can be said for any animal who we take swiftly out of this world to put on our plate. It makes zero difference that these were not bred for meat, a life is a life.

I eat lamb. Lambs are delightful, sweet creatures. It is the life they lead up until death which is important to me. These were obviously happy, well looked after ponies.

 

[Wishfilly]

I don't know what all the fuss is about. Sure it's sad to see such young lives brought to an end but the same can be said for any animal who we take swiftly out of this world to put on our plate. It makes zero difference that these were not bred for meat, a life is a life.

I eat lamb. Lambs are delightful, sweet creatures. It is the life they lead up until death which is important to me. These were obviously happy, well looked after ponies.

To me, it matters if it is symptomatic of too many foals being bred in general within the breed/local area. Obviously this year has been very unusual circumstances, but breeding without a thought about where the ponies will end up because there is the final option of the meat man does lead to welfare issues.

That's a general comment, not a comment on these specific ponies as such.

In my opinion, reducing indiscriminate breeding tends to improve welfare standards for the breed as a whole.

And as we are apparently having to prove our welfare credentials on the thread, I give time/money/energy to a local charity which helps rehome unwanted moorland ponies. If I ever had suitable facilities available, I'd love to adopt one of their ponies as well.

 

[stormox]

Mares are evolved to have a foal at foot and be pregnant at the same time. They are pregnant for 11 months so how else would they produce foals yearly?
No one said for them to remain with the mare indefinitely but weaning early just for them to be slaughtered. Not ok imo. Legal or not.

They are, but it runs the mare down, just look at the state of the ponies in the New Forest and on Welsh Hills so it makes more sense to let her use the goodness from her feed for herself and her embryo and to let the older foals feed for themselves in groups.

 

[Pedantic]

If we are to talk about over breeding and killing the unwanted, rather than proper management, I can think of another species that overgrazes and ruins it's habitat all the time...

 

[luckyoldme]

If we are to talk about over breeding and killing the unwanted, rather than proper management, I can think of another species that overgrazes and ruins it's habitat all the time...

We are shit aren't we !

 

[popcorn1]

They are, but it runs the mare down, just look at the state of the ponies in the New Forest and on Welsh Hills so it makes more sense to let her use the goodness from her feed for herself and her embryo and to let the older foals feed for themselves in groups.

I can't comment about Welsh Hill ponies, however your views on the mares in the New Forest are IMO very outdated. Stock are regularly checked and any animal deemed to be in a too poor condition is ordered off. Commoners have to have back up grazing for such eventualities. Stallions are turned out for just a few shorts weeks each year. Youngstock are very sought after, even during this pandemic, everyone I know has easily found homes for their colts and they have made decent prices. A good forest run mare is like gold dust here, they are next to never available for sale and if they do become available they are easily passed on through word of mouth and make very favourable prices given they are feral.

 

[meleeka]

I can't comment about Welsh Hill ponies, however your views on the mares in the New Forest are IMO very outdated. Stock are regularly checked and any animal deemed to be in a too poor condition is ordered off. Commoners have to have back up grazing for such eventualities. Stallions are turned out for just a few shorts weeks each year. Youngstock are very sought after, even during this pandemic, everyone I know has easily found homes for their colts and they have made decent prices. A good forest run mare is like gold dust here, they are next to never available for sale and if they do become available they are easily passed on through word of mouth and make very favourable prices given they are feral.

I think a few colts still go for meat money at the Beaulieu Road sales, but I agree with you on the condition of the mares. They are unrecognisable from those seen in winter 10 years ago and are well managed to make sure they don’t lose condition.

 

[Equine_Dream]

They are, but it runs the mare down, just look at the state of the ponies in the New Forest and on Welsh Hills so it makes more sense to let her use the goodness from her feed for herself and her embryo and to let the older foals feed for themselves in groups.

I'm not sure what studs you've experienced but ime the mares are in fantastic condition. I keep my horses on a yard that runs a Welsh D stud. I also bought my mare from another Welsh stud. The mares are pregnant yearly and foals are weaned at 6 months. Mares are kept in amazing condition and no worse for having a foal at foot and pregnant at the same time.
It may be a different case with wild herds but these foals were not from a wild herd.

 

[Equine_Dream]

In any event as people have said we don't know the age of these foals, but I would like to hope that they were around 6 months or very near.

 

[stormox]

I'm not sure what studs you've experienced but ime the mares are in fantastic condition. I keep my horses on a yard that runs a Welsh D stud. I also bought my mare from another Welsh stud. The mares are pregnant yearly and foals are weaned at 6 months. Mares are kept in amazing condition and no worse for having a foal at foot and pregnant at the same time.
It may be a different case with wild herds but these foals were not from a wild herd.

Yes. You wean the foals at 6 months. Someone was saying this was too early and should wean at 11 months like in nature and I said leaving a foal at foot on a pregnant mare for 11 months would run her down.

 

[Cortez]

In any event as people have said we don't know the age of these foals, but I would like to hope that they were around 6 months or very near.

Just curious, but why? What difference would it make?