Facebook - Horse shot by livery owner

[Sebastian]

I am just amazed as ever at the way people view the world..

You know I have zero idea how I would react if someone turned up with a horse that they had just shot, I'm not sure if I would of stayed there and waited with the horse, I can't imagine how I would react, it is a situation so awful that I can't compute it, but I kind of think that if there was someone out here with a gun, I would of gone into the house and locked myself in.

Those who are saying the the leaser is responsible, well yes they are responsible for not paying, I have no idea if she intended to pay or not, but it is just totally beyond any comprehension of mine that anyone thanks that it is OK to shoot a horse over a 30 quid, three week debt.

I don't know how many times I have to repeat this, but no one here is saying that it's ok to shoot a horse because of a debt. I don't know why people are not getting this. The point remains though, if the loaner had paid her upfront, like she was supposed to, or took the horse to a better livery yard, then the horse would still be alive.

 

[ladyt25]

Hi, Just thought I would add my two pennies as I have read this thread with interest and I keep my horse close to this place. I know a lot of people are in too much shock to comprehend that this killing is simply over a £30 debt and think surely there must be more to this than we are hearing. Sadly, there probably isn't more to it than the small debt. The man in question (the livery owner) is renowned in this area for being a particularly evil man. In addition to the stories we have read on here, there are three others I can relate which may give you some idea as to the sort of individual he is. He once was owed some money for horse livery so he took the horse to a roundabout in thirsk and tethered it there (alive fortunately). A little odd maybe ? He fell out with an ex employee and took his farm vehicle (JCB/digger or something similar) to the guy's car which was parked outside his house and rammed it until it stood up on its end against the guy's garage wall - a little odd too I think. And he shot his daughters ponies when they decided they weren't as interested in them as they once were - surely one would remind said daughters how fortunate they were or sell the ponies.

So, shooting horses willy nilly and doing things that most of the rest of the population thinks crazy just seem to come as second nature to this individual and are not likely to stop here either if he gets away with it.

As for Cooper, well I am disappointed if he did this without having been given some convincing lies about why it needed to be done, he has looked after my pony before now and always been lovely (not the horse whispering that he does, I don't believe in it !), so this has really given me a kick up the bum with respect to him. I shan't be using either his or the livery's services again, that is for sure.

Kit's owner - I am devastated for you love, so sorry you lost her this way.

I too am shocked if he was involved without having been spun a set of lies (although you'd think with his 'intuition' he'd have known it was a lie?!!). His reputation will be well and truly down the pan

 

[FionaM12]

I don't know how many times I have to repeat this, but no one here is saying that it's ok to shoot a horse because of a debt. I don't know why people are not getting this. The point remains though, if the loaner had paid her upfront, like she was supposed to, or took the horse to a better livery yard, then the horse would still be alive.

You could equally say if the owner hadn't loaned her the mare would still be alive. All these things are irrelevent. Those who killed her are the only ones to blame for er death.

 

[Sebastian]

You could equally say if the owner hadn't loaned her the mare would still be alive. All these things are irrelevent. Those who killed her are the only ones to blame for er death.

I respectfully disagree.

 

[YorksG]

I too am shocked if he was involved without having been spun a set of lies (although you'd think with his 'intuition' he'd have known it was a lie?!!). His reputation will be well and truly down the pan

I would have thought his reputation would have been flushed the first time he shot a horse having told the owner that the horse told him that was what it wanted !

 

[Big Ben]

I don't know how many times I have to repeat this, but no one here is saying that it's ok to shoot a horse because of a debt. I don't know why people are not getting this. The point remains though, if the loaner had paid her upfront, like she was supposed to, or took the horse to a better livery yard, then the horse would still be alive.

I guess again and again until everyone agrees with the point that you, me, or anyone else is trying to make.

With the paying up front, well to me the Yard Owner is at fault, if your rules are money upfront, don't let a horse set foot on your property until you have the cash it really is that simple.

Once he has ignored his own rules and taken the horse onto the property without cash up front, then as the person involved I would then think that this guy is OK and relaxed about the whole thing.

Once again, to me, her actions, though incorrect, well she could not of fore seen the tragic consequences.

My point again, and I have no idea why this is important to me, but it does make a difference in how I view it. I'm back to the end of the month thing, I get how money can run out, and when people owe me, you give them at least to the next payday to make right, because if there is no money, there is no money, and all the shouting in the world wont make it appear. To have a horse on your property for 3 weeks, which you accepted without your normally required upfront payment, then *shrugs* I would have let it go a week or two more.

The law of unintended consequences is a harsh one, and everyone in this case lost sadly, and some paid a bigger price than others.

 

[Big Ben]

You could equally say if the owner hadn't loaned her the mare would still be alive. All these things are irrelevent. Those who killed her are the only ones to blame for er death.

And I respectfully Agree!

 

[Leo Walker]

The other thing to consider it, that as hes based near York, York Sales run monthly. He would have got more than £30 if he had taken the horse there. He could have put the paper work through before the next sale and come out with the £30 and his costs. There was clearly more to this than just money

 

[brucea]

I would have thought his reputation would have been flushed the first time he shot a horse having told the owner that the horse told him that was what it wanted !

That bloke sounds like a total nutter. What stone did he crawl out from under?

If he said that to me about my horses he'd be shown off the premises after being handed a wad of tissues for his bloody nose!

 

[ladyt25]

That bloke sounds like a total nutter. What stone did he crawl out from under?

If he said that to me about my horses he'd be shown off the premises after being handed a wad of tissues for his bloody nose!

I am not aware of him telling people their horses needed or wanted to be shot!

 

[ladyt25]

That bloke sounds like a total nutter. What stone did he crawl out from under?

If he said that to me about my horses he'd be shown off the premises after being handed a wad of tissues for his bloody nose!

I am not aware of him telling people their horses needed or wanted to be shot!

 

[Sebastian]

I guess again and again until everyone agrees with the point that you, me, or anyone else is trying to make.

With the paying up front, well to me the Yard Owner is at fault, if your rules are money upfront, don't let a horse set foot on your property until you have the cash it really is that simple.

Once he has ignored his own rules and taken the horse onto the property without cash up front, then as the person involved I would then think that this guy is OK and relaxed about the whole thing.

Once again, to me, her actions, though incorrect, well she could not of fore seen the tragic consequences.

My point again, and I have no idea why this is important to me, but it does make a difference in how I view it. I'm back to the end of the month thing, I get how money can run out, and when people owe me, you give them at least to the next payday to make right, because if there is no money, there is no money, and all the shouting in the world wont make it appear. To have a horse on your property for 3 weeks, which you accepted without your normally required upfront payment, then *shrugs* I would have let it go a week or two more.

The law of unintended consequences is a harsh one, and everyone in this case lost sadly, and some paid a bigger price than others.

Why do you and others keep saying, "I can't believe people here think it's ok to shoot a horse for £30"? Nobody has said that.

 

[Red-1]

Really? I think the alleged spoken agreement with the YO that any horse whose livery is in arrears will be shot/PTS means this is far from an unexpected outcome if you chose to refuse to pay your livery on time.

Really?

I know of a well known and respected eventing venue, when you turn up at an event there is a sign telling people that if their dog is found loose at the event it will be shot.

I don't take my dog eventing so I don't have to worry about that being true, and I do know that if there is stock being worried then a farmer is entitled to shoot the dog doing the worrying.

HOWEVER at a horse event I always presumed that this was a notice to bring dog owners to realise that they really must keep their dogs under control, I have never stressed in case I were approaching fence no 12 on the Cross Country and have to hold hard while a volley of shotguns dispatches a loose dog or two.

In fact I do remember a dog being found loose and put the the secretary's tent, and it was announced that it would be ransomed for £10 donation to a charity.

I hear a lot of threats on a Saturday night (worker (not That type)) where people say "I will kill you". I don't habitually have to pile up the dead bodies in the street.

I think there are threats, and there is a line that it would be "unexpected" for people to cross.

I am all for paying bills on time. I believed the loaner did wrong by not paying the £30 in 2 and a half weeks. But on a scale it is way below the actions of the livery yard, and yes, it would have been "unexpected" to me, at least.

I guess we will be agreeing to disagree on this one.

 

[YorksG]

I am not aware of him telling people their horses needed or wanted to be shot!

There are previous posts on this thread which state that he did.

 

[Moya_999]

Is anyone else getting fb posts asking for donations to allow the other liveries at the gg place to leave?

Nope who is sending them, I see no requests!!

 

[Sebastian]

Really?

I know of a well known and respected eventing venue, when you turn up at an event there is a sign telling people that if their dog is found loose at the event it will be shot.

I don't take my dog eventing so I don't have to worry about that being true, and I do know that if there is stock being worried then a farmer is entitled to shoot the dog doing the worrying.

HOWEVER at a horse event I always presumed that this was a notice to bring dog owners to realise that they really must keep their dogs under control, I have never stressed in case I were approaching fence no 12 on the Cross Country and have to hold hard while a volley of shotguns dispatches a loose dog or two.

In fact I do remember a dog being found loose and put the the secretary's tent, and it was announced that it would be ransomed for £10 donation to a charity.

I hear a lot of threats on a Saturday night (worker (not That type)) where people say "I will kill you". I don't habitually have to pile up the dead bodies in the street.

I think there are threats, and there is a line that it would be "unexpected" for people to cross.

I am all for paying bills on time. I believed the loaner did wrong by not paying the £30 in 2 and a half weeks. But on a scale it is way below the actions of the livery yard, and yes, it would have been "unexpected" to me, at least.

I guess we will be agreeing to disagree on this one.

Yet the loaner knew these weren't just idle threats, silly banter, or humorous signs, since she was aware of the GG Centre's previous history when it comes to shooting horses

 

[ladyt25]

There are previous posts on this thread which state that he did.

Yes but without actually being there and hearing exactly what was said then that cannot be taken as gospel can it.
I will say he has been to see my horse as i felt I had nothing to lose. He did not tell me my horse needed to be destroyed but he did pick up some points, not only about my horse but also me. One of the things he picked up about me was quite freaky as was nothing he should have 'read'. Even if he was a com charlatan it would make no sense for him to tell customers their horses wanted to die?! All reports I have heard from people have been positive so I am not sure where these have come from.
Still bears no relevance to this case though. There is no excuse for what this livery yard owner has had done

 

[FestiveFuzz]

Really?

I know of a well known and respected eventing venue, when you turn up at an event there is a sign telling people that if their dog is found loose at the event it will be shot.

I don't take my dog eventing so I don't have to worry about that being true, and I do know that if there is stock being worried then a farmer is entitled to shoot the dog doing the worrying.

HOWEVER at a horse event I always presumed that this was a notice to bring dog owners to realise that they really must keep their dogs under control, I have never stressed in case I were approaching fence no 12 on the Cross Country and have to hold hard while a volley of shotguns dispatches a loose dog or two.

In fact I do remember a dog being found loose and put the the secretary's tent, and it was announced that it would be ransomed for £10 donation to a charity.

I hear a lot of threats on a Saturday night (worker (not That type)) where people say "I will kill you". I don't habitually have to pile up the dead bodies in the street.

I think there are threats, and there is a line that it would be "unexpected" for people to cross.

I am all for paying bills on time. I believed the loaner did wrong by not paying the £30 in 2 and a half weeks. But on a scale it is way below the actions of the livery yard, and yes, it would have been "unexpected" to me, at least.

I guess we will be agreeing to disagree on this one.

To a certain extent it depends on exactly how the YO broaches the subject, if it were in a jovial manner than I would naturally assume it were a joke, if it were a passing comment I may consider it to be an empty threat but if however he wanted my express agreement to such a clause (be it verbal or otherwise) before I moved onto the yard and was known to have shot horses in the past for non-payment I would take it as his policy and either ensure I was never in arrears or not move there in the first place.

As I never intend to be a livery there I will never know how he broaches the subject but from the conversations I've seen on Facebook it seems it was local knowledge that this YO was likely to act on his threat. So I wouldn't deem it unexpected for said YO to shoot my horse if I were in arrears and therefore would do everything in my power to not owe him so much as a penny, more so if I was loaning someone else's horse.

But that's just my take on things and I'm more than happy to agree to disagree as as the last 55 pages show with good reason this is an incredibly emotive topic.

 

[Hurricanelady]

Funnily enough, and I very much doubt it is me you are talking about, he pretty much told me the same thing about my pony. I had just been wondering how many other people he has told this to when your post popped up, anyone else? He went off my yard having convinced me he was a total fake! Why was I not surprised when his name popped up on this thread in relation to the 'murdered' horse! FWIW, my boy is happily munching in the field over a year later.

He did exactly the same to a friend of mine, told her the horse had given up, wanted to die and offered to shoot him. Luckily she declined and had no more to do with him. He did come up with some very perceptive things about this horse (who had a very troubled past in training) but this seems to be a very worrying thing that he often "advises". I had him for a visit to see what he had to communicate about my horses, and it was very general stuff he came up with. He suggested I send a yearling to his yard but there was absolutely no reason for doing that, so I didn't. I have no idea if he was or wasn't involved in this dreadful incident, but I would caution anyone considering using him to be aware of this bizarre and very worrying suggestion to allow him to shoot owners horses, that he allegedly often makes.

 

[Regandal]

If even half of the alleged deeds this guy is supposed to have carried out are true, you really start to wonder why he's still walking about. I've known people sectioned for less.

 

[YorksG]

Yes but without actually being there and hearing exactly what was said then that cannot be taken as gospel can it.
I will say he has been to see my horse as i felt I had nothing to lose. He did not tell me my horse needed to be destroyed but he did pick up some points, not only about my horse but also me. One of the things he picked up about me was quite freaky as was nothing he should have 'read'. Even if he was a com charlatan it would make no sense for him to tell customers their horses wanted to die?! All reports I have heard from people have been positive so I am not sure where these have come from.
Still bears no relevance to this case though. There is no excuse for what this livery yard owner has had done

But your post is no more likely to be true than anyone elses. I have had a 'communication' done with my horses, amazing results (different communicator!), so no argument regarding that aspect. There are some people who will take their power over others to the extreme, this bloke sounds as if he has some serious narcistic problems and believes he has the right to exercise the power of life and death over other peoples horses. He sounds like a dangerous individual to me.

 

[ladyt25]

But your post is no more likely to be true than anyone elses. I have had a 'communication' done with my horses, amazing results (different communicator!), so no argument regarding that aspect. There are some people who will take their power over others to the extreme, this bloke sounds as if he has some serious narcistic problems and believes he has the right to exercise the power of life and death over other peoples horses. He sounds like a dangerous individual to me.

No, that is true but what I am saying is he certainly never suggested my horse should be destroyed. Neither has that ever been something that has been conveyed by anyone I know who has ever had any dealings with him. That is why I find it bizarre these accounts have now come about.
I am open-minded and asked for him to come out in case he could shed any light on my horse's issues. He said nothing remarkable but more confirmed some thoughts we had had. He did however pick up on some bizarre things about me that I was not expecting!

 

[blackandwhite]

Sorry I have no idea how or if I can quote on my phone... I think the fb donations thing might just be someone local to me. Does seem a bit odd that liveries would need donations to be able to leave. I don't doubt the intention is genuine but it's a bit odd.

 

[Chavhorse]

Just seen this update on FB

UPDATE: Hi Danielle, thanks for approving me to the group, the whole thing is outrageous but I didn't want to post on the group as I live close by, I heard tonight that 4 C &C lorries were booked to pick up the liveries but, the gates where locked so police were called and Armed police arrived about 15 of them to get the gates opened. Most of the liveries have now gone. The man that is pictured is not the man who chased poor Kit around the field with the JCB, it was his son. People who were present say this person WILL go to jail and there is a lot more to come out" no names will be mentioned on any posts guys thank you Danielle x

 

[Chavhorse]

Sorry I have no idea how or if I can quote on my phone... I think the fb donations thing might just be someone local to me. Does seem a bit odd that liveries would need donations to be able to leave. I don't doubt the intention is genuine but it's a bit odd.

Apparently it is because the liveries have given deposits and YO is refusing to return them unless they give the full months notice, I suppose it is a very dificult situation to be in I mean would you want to give this guy a months notice, I know I would think twice yet I suppose people need the deposit money back to give to a new livery yard, although I know there have been offers of free emergency livery and transport....tis a rum one!

 

[Chavhorse]

Sorry posted twice!

 

[PollyP99]

Sickening that a couple of individuals on this thread seem to want to keep stirring
this up by suggestion that somehow the loaner should shoulder the majority of the blame is taking things too far, come on guys no one expects this to happen to their horse.

You seemed to be forgetting this actually happened to someone's horse, please, have some respect. Find another thread to have "fun" on.

 

[Equi]

Sickening that a couple of individuals on this thread seem to want to keep stirring
this up by suggestion that somehow the loaner should shoulder the majority of the blame is taking things too far, come on guys no one expects this to happen to their horse.

You seemed to be forgetting this actually happened to someone's horse, please, have some respect. Find another thread to have "fun" on.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[FestiveFuzz]

Sickening that a couple of individuals on this thread seem to want to keep stirring
this up by suggestion that somehow the loaner should shoulder the majority of the blame is taking things too far, come on guys no one expects this to happen to their horse.

You seemed to be forgetting this actually happened to someone's horse, please, have some respect. Find another thread to have "fun" on.

No idea if this is directed at me or not but I can assure you the fact this has actually happened to someone's horse has definitely not been forgotten and my utmost sympathies go to the owner of the horse. However I struggle to understand how the loaner didn't expect this to happen when not only was she verbally told this was the policy before moving onto the yard but also acknowledged on Facebook that she was aware he'd shot other horses who were in arrears in the past.

As I said before I in no way condone the actions of the YO but at the same time I cannot get my head around why anyone would move to a new yard knowing they expect a month's livery upfront and then refuse to pay, even without the threat of the horse being shot if they end up in arrears. The fact this is allegedly over such a nominal amount if anything makes it worse as surely if you can't scrape together £30 you're probably not in the position to be owning or loaning a horse in the first place?!

 

[WelshD]

Sickening that a couple of individuals on this thread seem to want to keep stirring
this up by suggestion that somehow the loaner should shoulder the majority of the blame is taking things too far, come on guys no one expects this to happen to their horse.

You seemed to be forgetting this actually happened to someone's horse, please, have some respect. Find another thread to have "fun" on.

I haven't seen a single post that says the loaner should shoulder the majority of the blame, just that they should take SOME blame, they knew payment was needed in advance and chose to decide when they feel it should be paid, they took a huge gamble knowing full well the reputation of the yard owner, no one could have forseen the horror that occurred but even the thought that the horse may find itself homeless should have been enough for the loaner to pay when payment was due - the other liveries seemed to be able to pay on time

Yes this happened to someone's horse, the poor OWNER must no doubt be distraught

Regarding the donations to help the liveries leave, that's the maddest thing I have ever heard. They cant scrape together a new deposit even when faced with this horror? Why do so many of these facebook campaigns involve donations?