Alec Swan
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So, with nothing else to add, we have nothing else to offer but insult and obscenity? The next step tends to be spealling an grimmer! 
Alec.
Alec.
Hound 'culling'
- Thread starter Peter7917
- Start date
kateandluelue
Well-Known Member
So, with nothing else to add, we have nothing else to offer but insult and obscenity? The next step tends to be spealling an grimmer!
Alec.
I can cope with poor spealing and grimmer. Dark beliefs i could not. But yes, we can agree there is nothing further to add.
wench
Well-Known Member
I always find in posts like this that the people that cannot have a sensible conversation/debate and resort to name calling actually know nothing about what they claim to be an expert on.
Greyhounds, although hunting hounds, are bred for a totally different purpose to foxhounds. They are designed for a two hundred yard sprint, catch the quarry on their own, then go back home to sleep for the rest of the day after their hard work. Foxhounds are bred to work in a pack and cover many miles per day. Fell hounds (although my knowledge of them is limited), will have been bred from hounds with different traits to foxhounds, so will be different again,
Greyhounds, although hunting hounds, are bred for a totally different purpose to foxhounds. They are designed for a two hundred yard sprint, catch the quarry on their own, then go back home to sleep for the rest of the day after their hard work. Foxhounds are bred to work in a pack and cover many miles per day. Fell hounds (although my knowledge of them is limited), will have been bred from hounds with different traits to foxhounds, so will be different again,
{97702}
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Speak for yourself there Wench - personally I know quite a lot about ex racing greyhounds having worked very closely with a rescue charity for a number of years as well as having my own greyhounds, what infuriates me is when people set themselves up as experts on something they clearly know nothing about, and spout rubbish which is totally untrue and inaccurate
G&T
Well-Known Member
I can't claim to be an expert on hounds or whether they would take to being re-homed when their working lives are over - I'd imagine many wouldn't be able to adjust, and we've heard that there are cases of those who do cope. However - if a hound has no other possible use or purpose other than hunting , then what is the justification of continuing to breed them (foxhounds at least) given hunting is illegal? Dog breeding that feeds other illegal activities i.e. breeding pitbulls for dog fighting, is shut down by police. I'm interested as to why foxhounds are still allowed to be bred. Whats the point?
kateandluelue
Well-Known Member
Yeah thats a really good point
wench
Well-Known Member
Trail hunting is not illegal which is what fox hounds are used for...
LD&S
Well-Known Member
Lévrier;13161707 said:
Greyhounds are so lazy and if it's raining, well that's a whole another story as no doubt you know lol
TwyfordM
Well-Known Member
I don't have any experience of foxhounds, but I agree that putting them to sleep at the end of their working lives isn't the end of the world! Its far far better than ending up in an unsuitable home. I gather that the breed needs a huge amount of exercise, have a pack mentality, high prey drive and have lived in kennels with their pack their whole lives. Doesn't exactly make the ideal pet and its hard (not impossible though) to meet their needs in a home environment. You would have to train them out of everything they have been bred and trained to do for their entire lives up to that point and I don't think that fair.
I don't understand how someone can be pro shooting a horse but anti shooting a dog. What's the difference?!
I don't personally eat meat but have no issue with those that do or farming for meat. Fine for a sheep/cow/pig to be bred for and killed for a purpose but everyone seems to get het up about it when its a "pet" type of animal. I've had a house rabbit in the past, doesn't bother me feeding my dog rabbit though!
I have a retired greyhound as a pet, he was miserable in kennels and as a result wouldn't chase so was rehomed at 18months. That instinct is there, he will chase anything small that runs but his energy levels are easily met in a home environment. He was never in a "pack" so that wasn't an issue.
Greyhounds and foxhounds are worlds apart!
I don't understand how someone can be pro shooting a horse but anti shooting a dog. What's the difference?!
I don't personally eat meat but have no issue with those that do or farming for meat. Fine for a sheep/cow/pig to be bred for and killed for a purpose but everyone seems to get het up about it when its a "pet" type of animal. I've had a house rabbit in the past, doesn't bother me feeding my dog rabbit though!
I have a retired greyhound as a pet, he was miserable in kennels and as a result wouldn't chase so was rehomed at 18months. That instinct is there, he will chase anything small that runs but his energy levels are easily met in a home environment. He was never in a "pack" so that wasn't an issue.
Greyhounds and foxhounds are worlds apart!
chillipup
Well-Known Member
Of course they do minesadouble, they are firearms trained (regularly) and firearms licensed holders. What would you do if you were called to an overturned truck carrying a hundred sheep on their way to a slaughter house over 100+ miles away to be made into curry, that were suffering hideously and dying as a result of the accident? Try to imagine the carnage? (with the OK of a vet of course, who may or quite likely may not have a firearms licence and firearm with him/her) or the deer involved in a road collision sustaining two compound fractured legs and is still trying it's utmost to scamble away?
Of course it's legal! Unlike a free fire bullet firearm, the risk, in perhaps a built up area, over concrete/hard ground blah de blah, a captive bolt is both legal and preferred, due to safety reasons (possible ricochet) However, it is necessary to 'pith' the animal immediately, which they do. From what I recall from being reliably informed, they carry both a captive bolt and free fire bullet gun.
As in my above post K&L, I understand that her father believes he has both a duty and a responsibility, himself, to ensure his old, knackered friend, is given a quick and painless exit, without worry or anticipation and it is his way of thanking the dog for its faithfull service, love and friendship.
How do you know she doesn't have access to 3 acres of secured ' go mental bat **** crazy' area in which her dogs hoone around? or are you just jumping to conclusions? again. Please enlighten us to how the dogs display these stress levels, assuming I am both blind and have no knowledge of keeping Greyhounds. and as for saying 'perhaps they're a convenience to her' how bloody rude, do you throw into the ring, a little bone of contention deliberately in an effort to promote a response? (as it appears) or do you genuinely feel this way?
(* ducking for cover, awaiting your response)LOL
Alec Swan
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G&T
Well-Known Member
The whole breeding, training etc seems such a rigmarole just to facilitate a drag hunt, which is essentially a pre-planned cross country ride so you don't actually need hounds to guide it
wench
Well-Known Member
But then farmers wouldn't generally offer their land up for a jolly xc ride out if they didn't get anything out of it ie fallen stock services.
Also if foxhounds were not bred any more, that would be a historic hound breed, that probably has the longest traceable pedigree of any type of dog, extinct
Alec Swan
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Clearly, you have no understanding of 'hound work'. Hunting, be it for a quarry or a laid track, is about Hounds and how they Hunt.
Alec.
G&T
Well-Known Member
Fair enough - I don't know much about the current hunting situation so have no reason to disagree with you. Myself, in the grand scheme of things I've never thought hunting was the cruellest thing we do to animals, so was not massively anti (although not pro either) but I do believe in the rule of law. And that means following the spirit of the law, not just the letter and finding loopholes in it
G&T
Well-Known Member
I do understand that hunting is about the hounds and how they work together and with the huntsmen and women. And those that follow the hunt so they can have a fun and exciting ride are secondary. My point is that if it's only trail hunting and/or drag hunting thats allowed, is the industry not pretty much finished? Can we still justify breeding these 'working dogs' (with associated need to cull many healthy dogs) if their only 'job' is messing about following fake trails for a bit of fun?
Alec Swan
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……..
How do you know she doesn't have access to 3 acres of secured ' go mental bat **** crazy' area in which her dogs hoone around? or are you just jumping to conclusions? again.
Please enlighten us to how the dogs display these stress levels, assuming I am both blind and have no knowledge of keeping Greyhounds.
and as for saying 'perhaps they're a convenience to her' how bloody rude, do you throw into the ring, a little bone of contention deliberately in an effort to promote a response? (as it appears) or do you genuinely feel this way?
LOL
She lives but 3 doors away.
If you are unable, as most, to recognise an animal under stress by their demeanour and body language, then perhaps you could think before you criticise those who do.
Yes, I certainly feel as I do. I'm very fond of the lady concerned, even when her bloody dogs escape and kill my livestock, and however well intentioned she may believe that she is, she's sadly blind to the unhappiness of her dogs.
Alec.
Alec Swan
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If you're belief is that these hounds are only 'messing about', then you have little in the way of understanding of what Hounds are actually about.
Alec.
G&T
Well-Known Member
So what is their job? Are they providing a necessary service like a police dog or a guide dog?
I have already said I'm far from an expert on hunting with hounds. Haven't been since way back in the mists of time when I was in the pony club - and would not do it now.
Alec Swan
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G&T
Well-Known Member
Yes, two small terriers. They're pets so their only purpose is companionship, they mooch around the farm and come on long walks with us. This conversation is about hounds, who have been classed as working dogs, not pets - and many including yourself have said they have no other function and do not make good pets, which I agree with. My point, in asking you what their 'job' is nowadays, is that if they are not really allowed by law to control foxes any more in any meaningful way, then their job is defunct. I guess that much like some dogs are bred for showing, they are maybe bred to keep the tradition alive and that hunting people enjoy working on their craft with the hounds. It just seems a shame in that case that they are shot at 7 as a matter of course
Cobbytype
Well-Known Member
I have a few genuine questions:
1) It is my understanding (correct me if I'm wrong) that young hunting hounds/dogs are sometimes foster homed for a while when they are puppies to get them used to people and to learn social skills. If an adult hound/dog cannot remember those formative weeks/months with their puppy walkers (and return to that lifestyle as and when), why is it done in the first place?
2) I am confused as to why it is applauded when a retired or failed, but healthy race horse is given a second chance to flourish in an alternative role, yet it is seen as cruel to give a hound/dog that opportunity? The distinction seems false. The race horse has been bred for centuries to race, the hound has been bred for centuries to hunt. What is the difference?
No-one can deny that a horse's instinct is to roam free in a herd, but of course we can't (on the whole) let them do that for obvious reasons, so it is acceptable to do the next best thing - to provide a semi-natural environment in the form of an enclosed paddock with grazing and companionship. Many horses would love that paddock gate to be left open and to run free, but to keep them safe we have to enclose them. Why is it different for a hound/dog? Why would say a large country garden with lots of room for a hound or two to run and sniff be so different to a thoroughbred's paddock?
1) It is my understanding (correct me if I'm wrong) that young hunting hounds/dogs are sometimes foster homed for a while when they are puppies to get them used to people and to learn social skills. If an adult hound/dog cannot remember those formative weeks/months with their puppy walkers (and return to that lifestyle as and when), why is it done in the first place?
2) I am confused as to why it is applauded when a retired or failed, but healthy race horse is given a second chance to flourish in an alternative role, yet it is seen as cruel to give a hound/dog that opportunity? The distinction seems false. The race horse has been bred for centuries to race, the hound has been bred for centuries to hunt. What is the difference?
No-one can deny that a horse's instinct is to roam free in a herd, but of course we can't (on the whole) let them do that for obvious reasons, so it is acceptable to do the next best thing - to provide a semi-natural environment in the form of an enclosed paddock with grazing and companionship. Many horses would love that paddock gate to be left open and to run free, but to keep them safe we have to enclose them. Why is it different for a hound/dog? Why would say a large country garden with lots of room for a hound or two to run and sniff be so different to a thoroughbred's paddock?
LD&S
Well-Known Member
I think maybe you forgot to tell us about the signs of stress these dogs are exhibiting that are so obvious a blind person could see.
Alec Swan
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So your two terriers provide a 'necessary service'(your words)? Can you explain to me why Hounds shouldn't do the same?
1) Hound puppies are, as you say 'walked' and to teach them the basic skills of dealing with humans. The problem arises with walking puppies in that they are generally sent back to kennels when their natural instincts take over, and they become unmanageable. Hound pups will very soon become unruly and will be sent to school! Not all of course, but most, if they're to be of any use!
2) The link to horses in training is interesting, and of all the thousands which are bred every year, VERY few settle to being happy hackers. OK, so the odd one will go on and Event or Hunt or find a second career, but they're in the minority, aren't they? It's the training regime which is responsible.
If the large and well fenced country garden could contain a couple of retired Hounds, then what would they do all day, apart from dig holes, bury bones and generally turn the place in to a tip? Oh, and probably wake the dead in the middle of the night whilst they voice their frustrations!
It would be a lovely idea, but not one that would really be kind to the animal.Alec.
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Alec Swan
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Sadly, 'telling' is impossible, it's either something which we see with our own eyes, or we don't. I've had others try to explain to me the finer points of ballet, but I fail to see the emphasis which they bring. Similarly, and with animals which are stressed, it's something which we either recognise, or we don't.
Where do your abilities lay? Could you describe them and the nuances of them to me?
Alec.
LD&S
Well-Known Member
But surely even to someone as uneducated in the ways of stressed greyhounds as me would be able to understand one or two of the finer points that you have said are so obvious. Or maybe this is yet another of your posts that when you are asked a direct question you choose to ignore it and ask a question in response.
Alec Swan
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The list of stress indicators, those of which we should be aware, are near endless. Body Language (the dog's demeanour) matters. Tail carriage matters. Eye contact (or the lack of it) matters. Panting when the dog's been for a walk but hasn't exerted itself matters. A dog licking its lips, sometimes matters. Constant yawning always matters. Self harm (often breed specific) matters. Loose bowel movements can also be an indication of stress. The list is endless and I've only scratched the surface. When you travel a dog in a car and for a considerable time, do they sleep? Most dogs hate car travel, surprisingly, even though they happily jump in when asked.
Do you recognise the signs of 'stress' in a dog, or are you simply looking for an argument? Your turn.
Alec.
Dobiegirl
Well-Known Member
alliwantforchristmas
Well-Known Member
gosh, how did a thread on culling foxhounds turn into a 'downer' on retired greyhounds? I've known several retired greyhounds - a few of my friends have had them, my uncle, and my Dad's best friend, bless him, when he was alive. To my mind they make great companion dogs. The only 'stress' I ever saw was one who had separation distress when left, that one was my friend's dog, and she just went and got another greyhound - problem solved! (She was never leaving them for a long time, only for a couple of hours as she is semi-retired and works from home). They are total comfort lovers and seem very affectionate to their owners, and the ones I've seen are easy and well-mannered to walk on the lead. I think you've got to be sensible and responsible about whether you let them off lead or not, and where, but that's the same with all dogs.